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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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 Posted: Fri Feb 04, 05 1:02 pm Post subject: |
 
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| judyofthewoods wrote: |
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..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet. |
or a few tools, some pipe .... |
Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).
BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.
HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow... |
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judyofthewoods
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| dougal wrote: |
| judyofthewoods wrote: |
| Quote: |
..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet. |
or a few tools, some pipe .... |
Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).
BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.
HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow... |
I agree with you entirely, first and foremost we have to conserve, whatever form of power we use. I dismay at some of the articles I see in Home Power magazine, where someone installs acres of PVs so they can still consume at the same level they did on mains. Many of those installations are grid tied, so they don't do it because they can't get the mains to where they live. I also laugh at the terms often used 'free' electricity, or 'green' electricity. Well, the source energy is both, but the conversion to electricity is neither. There is a degree of negative impact, some have more impact than others, though I do believe in using renewables and the cleanest possible, appropriate to its location, and use. By use I mean, that where e.g. mechanical power is needed and a source is available, then its nonsense to convert it to electrical only to convert it back to mechanical, or where heat is needed and a heat source is available...i.e. efficient use. In a home based system there is also the advantage of not having all your eggs in one basket, though I can't see why it should not work in the wider context.
For Watts given my system is quite expensive when compared with heavily subsidised mains - and by subsidy I don't mean direct finacial input but the wider cost to the environment, clean up etc., which still has to be borne but is not costed into the product - and a lot of energy has gone into producing the hardware (including e.g. the long pipe for the hydro), but as much of the power is used for the computer, and it allows me to work from home, there are indirect energy savings by not having to commute and run a car. Another advantage of living with home based renewables is that it teaches conserving energy. |
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Jonsey
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Chelmsford Essex
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| judyofthewoods wrote: |
| dougal wrote: |
| judyofthewoods wrote: |
| Quote: |
..... it seems you need to own a fortune to help save the planet. |
or a few tools, some pipe .... |
Agreed that with tools, pipe and some scrap materials one can garner useful solar water *heating*. CAT will sell you a book of plans for a few quid.
How much heat you actually get (especially in winter when there's less sun, but folks' heating needs are greater) will depend on the technology used (and the size of the installation).
BUT -
for anyone *with* a mains electricity option, *PV solar electricity* generation currently looks one of the **least** cost effective investments in either strict financial or carbon-saving terms one can make.
Insulate, insulate more, use energy saving bulbs, get solar water heating, use biofuels, put up a windmill, dam the stream for hydro, - do everything else possible, first, before buying PV panels.
HOWEVER -
if one is NOT on the mains electricity grid, like Judy and HWH (BTW I'd love to hear more about your setups), then it clearly does make sense to have some PV generating capacity, for when the stream dries up and the wind doesn't blow... |
I agree with you entirely, first and foremost we have to conserve, whatever form of power we use. I dismay at some of the articles I see in Home Power magazine, where someone installs acres of PVs so they can still consume at the same level they did on mains. Many of those installations are grid tied, so they don't do it because they can't get the mains to where they live. I also laugh at the terms often used 'free' electricity, or 'green' electricity. Well, the source energy is both, but the conversion to electricity is neither. There is a degree of negative impact, some have more impact than others, though I do believe in using renewables and the cleanest possible, appropriate to its location, and use. By use I mean, that where e.g. mechanical power is needed and a source is available, then its nonsense to convert it to electrical only to convert it back to mechanical, or where heat is needed and a heat source is available...i.e. efficient use. In a home based system there is also the advantage of not having all your eggs in one basket, though I can't see why it should not work in the wider context.
For Watts given my system is quite expensive when compared with heavily subsidised mains - and by subsidy I don't mean direct finacial input but the wider cost to the environment, clean up etc., which still has to be borne but is not costed into the product - and a lot of energy has gone into producing the hardware (including e.g. the long pipe for the hydro), but as much of the power is used for the computer, and it allows me to work from home, there are indirect energy savings by not having to commute and run a car. Another advantage of living with home based renewables is that it teaches conserving energy. |
thats ok if you are qualified to be able to do it yourself, but with the new rules that have been put in place that you cannot interfere with electricity instalations unless qualified how does a person like me with no knowledge or qualification get over this new hurdle without paying large amounts of well needed money to a instalation company or getting it condemed and making your house insurance policys void is it possible to get over this any ideas?. |
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex
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judyofthewoods
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 05 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, don't get me started on the bloody regulation mafia, damned suits, creates outlaws like myself, living on a knif's edge, or forcing people to stay on the tread mill. Not sure if there is a middle way, damned hard anyway. But one little positive info, if you do get an installation from a certified installer (I am talking about renewable electricity installations) the VAT is 'only' 5%. The bit of work I had done on my installation (rigging up the first two panels on a frame provided by the installer), cost me as much as the VAT would have cost, so I had something extra. |
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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jema
Downsizer Moderator
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon
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judyofthewoods
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 05 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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there are also two ways of getting solar hot water without pumps, but would not work in every situation. The first is having the panels below your tank (I think the minimum is about 3-4 feet for it to work well), this can make them more vulnerable to damage, and shading is more of a problem. The other method is a closed system batch water heater, which will need a pressure relief valve (a little inexpensive thingy that goes into the line with a T). Think of it as a large expanded bit of your pipe coming into the house, like a snake that has just eaten a whole rabbit, with the rabbit being your solar collector. Being direct, its not so good using old radiators for the job, as you would get rust in the water. The second volume of the Earthship trillogy describe a batch heater, there is also something on a batch heater here
https://beaverlake.homestead.com/files/BATCH.mht
(the page can be slow to load)
I will be doing some experiments this spring on batch heaters, and will put it on my website. |
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