Is green electricity really green?

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Is green electricity really green?
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Jb

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 7761
Location: 91� N

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 9:19 am Post subject: Is green electricity really green?

I mean if you choose to buy electricity on a green tariff can you reasonably say that you contribute nothing to global warming / pollution by doing so?

Electricity is a common resource in the same way that roads and public parks are, just because you pay for the maintenance of a park doesn't mean that you use that park. But people are sold electricity it as though it was free range eggs. Somewhat akin to choosing to buy free range eggs but then being given factory farmed eggs and being told that it's OK as some random person somewhere else who didn't pay for that choice will be given free range eggs.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Is green electricity really green?

JB wrote:

I mean if you choose to buy electricity on a green tariff can you reasonably say that you contribute nothing to global warming / pollution by doing so?

No, it means you contribute less, the only way to contribute nothing is to use nothing.

The grid is like a huge battery, I presume the providers of 'green' energy are regulated to make sure they contribute the same kW from green sources as they take in green sales.

Andy B

Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 3920
Location: Brum

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 9:42 am Post subject:

We could all change to green energy tomorow and nothing would change. We would still be getting electricity from the same place in the same way. Hopefully the money would be put towards creating more green energy but in reality the electricity still has to be paid for so only a small ammount, if anything, of your green bill will go towards creating new green energy sources. So a combination of NIMBY'ism and the technology not being quite their yet will mean it will take a very long time to get us all really getting the green energy we think we are getting.

Green Man

Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5272
Location: Rural Scotland.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 9:44 am Post subject:
Exactly, what would be wrong 'environmentally' with you paying for free range eggs and getting barn, when somebody paid barn and got free range? It makes no odds to the planet or the hens who consumes the end product.

Jb

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 7761
Location: 91� N

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:04 am Post subject:

Cho-ku-ri wrote:

Exactly, what would be wrong 'environmentally' with you paying for free range eggs and getting barn, when somebody paid barn and got free range? It makes no odds to the planet or the hens who consumes the end product.

Consider it the other way around. If you are just buying from a common resource then if you buy "free range" but without actually getting free range then your choice has not added a single free range hen. Similarly with electricity paying for a green tariff does nothing to improve the planet overall, at best it nominally means that you are paying for energy from a renewable source while someone who didn't sign up to such a tariff is deemed to be paying for a fossil fuel source.

Does such a choice actually change the amount of energy produced from renewable sources?

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:10 am Post subject:

northern ireland electricity wrote:

Most of our electricity is made by burning fossil fuels like gas, oil and coal in local power stations. This produces carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, which causes climate change. However Eco Energy is NIE�s alternative source of green electricity and for every unit of electricity you use in your home we will buy an equivalent amount of power from a local �renewable� supplier such as a wind farm.

Green Man

Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5272
Location: Rural Scotland.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:11 am Post subject:
JB ,You would think it has to, but it is a crazy world we live in, and in about ten years time somebody will do a report showing that we have all been duped. But don't worry the then government will demand a public enquiry and nothing will e done about it.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:19 am Post subject:
It seems to me that; Either not enough people have signed up to renewable sources, meaning that the total available capacity is greater than the usage of those who have signed up. More people have signed up than is available and we're being duped, or the same electrcity is being sold more than once. I'm not sure what is supposed to happen when the renewables market reaches capacity.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9878
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:20 am Post subject:

i always thing there is only so much 'green electricity ' - not enough to share
lets make up a percentage - say 20% - so only 20% of the people can buy it - and feel smug ... and pay more for it too of course...and everyone else has to use the other kind and suffer those smug looks..
I can afford to choose free range eggs, and free range chicken meat too, but in reality there is not enough of either to feed the nation so do i have the right to feel smug?
on the other hand, by buying free range, I feel I might be promoting the industry and there will be more free range available - so more people can join the smug club. (and improve the plight of chicken in the future too. maybe.)

does this work the same way with green electricity? does the extra you spend on it actually go to make more for other people? or just cover the costs or more profit to line the shareholders pockets. dunno

either way, the green way forward is to use less

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:32 am Post subject:
I wonder if green energy users have an average lower electrcity consumption that 'standard' users?

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 10:46 am Post subject:

It would be good to see a simple and unbiased explanation of what happens. I would have thought that once the renewable source has been built then all of it's generated power will be fed into the National Grid and then fossil fuel and nuclear used as top ups. I also gather that you can't simple turn off and on fossil fuel and nuclear power stations so I expect a balancing act is called for and a certain amount of energy dumped from the system.

According to a bit on Country File on Sunday there's a tax on all electricity bills anyway which is put towards renewables. The programme alleged that many wind farms are build in the wrong (i.e. less windy) places because of this cash. It's hardly a new concern but shows it's not a simple case of give someone some money and we reduce our carbon emissions.

Armchair

Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 205
Location: Winchester

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 07 8:31 pm Post subject:
There was an article on the BBC about 6-12 months ago explaining (or attempting to explain) the whole 'green electricity' issue. I must admit, it was pretty hard to follow, involving various credits and quotas. The way I look at it is thus; I use electricity and have to pay for it. I'd rather pay a company that adds renewable electricity to the national grid than one that doesn't.

alisjs

Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1497
Location: Conwy

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 07 8:11 am Post subject:

I've been on green electricity for 3 years now but it is still one of my missions in life to use as little as possible. There's a discussion about this on the www.carbondiet.org forum, cos at the moment the calculator disregards your leccy use for CO2 emisions if you are on green tariff. I think it's better to show your equivalent emisions.....after all the grid cannot currently supply green electricity for everyone, so we've all got to cut down. I guess the smug green users might be creating a consumer demand/market though (assuming we are not all being duped!).......
better switch off my appliances and go to work now!

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 07 8:16 am Post subject:

alisjs wrote:

There's a discussion about this on the www.carbondiet.org forum, cos at the moment the calculator disregards your leccy use for CO2 emisions if you are on green tariff.

Which it shouldn't do as even 'green' energy has a carbon footprint, some quite big. Wind turbines have to be built for example and many biofuels also require quite a high input of energy to grow and process the fuel.

As you say, reducing energy use should be one of our aims.

Jb

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 7761
Location: 91� N

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 07 8:28 am Post subject:
It was seeing carbomdiet do that which prompted the question. It's not quite as bad, but unless buying green electricity actually leads to a decrease in fossil fuel production then its just a variation of the concept of carbon offsets.

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