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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex
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 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 05 1:37 pm Post subject: BG teams up with Windsave |
 
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Published: 14 June 2005 12:00 AM
Industry Channel: None
Source: The Engineer Online
British Gas recently announced plans that will allow homeowners to generate their own free supply of electricity from the wind. The UK�s largest energy supplier has signed an agreement with Windsave to make roof-top wind turbines available to UK households.
An initial pilot later this year will see the household windmills installed on selected properties, both private and local authority owned, in Scotland and the South West and, if successful, will be rolled out across the country.
The Windsave rooftop model is expected to produce around 1kw of electricity to supplement the property�s existing national grid supply, enough to power a TV and DVD player, computer, fridge and freezer and several lights.
Dr Diana Montgomery, Head of Environment Strategy at British Gas said, �Having a roof-top turbine means householders can save money and help do their bit for the environment. Initial estimates show one unit could cut annual electricity bills by up to a third and reduce CO2 emissions by half a tonne per annum.�
According to a statement, the micro-wind generators are plugged directly into the mains through a standard 3 pin plug and can operate in wind speeds as low as three miles per hour.
A cable leads directly from the turbine into a control box where sophisticated electronics smooth out the rough electricity created by the wind power and convert it to match the mains frequency so it can be fed into the household mains through a 13 amp plug.
British Gas plans to use its nationwide network of engineers to install the turbines which, similar in size to a satellite dish, can be bolted on to a wall or gable end. The company�s engineers will also be on hand to maintain the systems through an annual maintenance contract.
While prices will not be confirmed until after the trials British Gas currently estimates that the turbines will retail at around �1500 which will include full installation. Householders may be able to benefit from subsidies towards the cost of installation as part of the Government�s Clear Skies programme |
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footprints
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 234
Location: North Wales
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 05 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: BG teams up with Windsave |
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| tahir wrote: |
Published: 14 June 2005 12:00 AM
Industry Channel: None
Source: The Engineer Online
British Gas recently announced plans that will allow homeowners to generate their own free supply of electricity from the wind. The UK’s largest energy supplier has signed an agreement with Windsave to make roof-top wind turbines available to UK households.
An initial pilot later this year will see the household windmills installed on selected properties, both private and local authority owned, in Scotland and the South West and, if successful, will be rolled out across the country.
The Windsave rooftop model is expected to produce around 1kw of electricity to supplement the property’s existing national grid supply, enough to power a TV and DVD player, computer, fridge and freezer and several lights.
Dr Diana Montgomery, Head of Environment Strategy at British Gas said, “Having a roof-top turbine means householders can save money and help do their bit for the environment. Initial estimates show one unit could cut annual electricity bills by up to a third and reduce CO2 emissions by half a tonne per annum.”
According to a statement, the micro-wind generators are plugged directly into the mains through a standard 3 pin plug and can operate in wind speeds as low as three miles per hour.
A cable leads directly from the turbine into a control box where sophisticated electronics smooth out the rough electricity created by the wind power and convert it to match the mains frequency so it can be fed into the household mains through a 13 amp plug.
British Gas plans to use its nationwide network of engineers to install the turbines which, similar in size to a satellite dish, can be bolted on to a wall or gable end. The company’s engineers will also be on hand to maintain the systems through an annual maintenance contract.
While prices will not be confirmed until after the trials British Gas currently estimates that the turbines will retail at around �1500 which will include full installation. Householders may be able to benefit from subsidies towards the cost of installation as part of the Government’s Clear Skies programme |
Will follow this with interest. There was a fuss a while back about homes bristling with satellite dishes. Pretty sure that a turbine rated at a KW is a bit bigger that a sky dish?
I live in a really windy place and have always said that I would take pleasure in being continually hammered by the wind (and my garden) if I was watching a little ammeter flickering  |
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oldhibberd
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 118
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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| Posted: Sun Jun 19, 05 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry but this is old news!
Its just the same press release that Lozzie reported being published on another site (oilfiredup)
https://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=61570#61570
complete with the continuing marketing fantasy of the "13 amp plug" - don't editors think before they parrot such nonsense? Don't they realise that a 240 volt generator with exposed *plug* pins would be kinda dangerous...
I'd love it if there was a �1000 device that would save �100 worth of electricity a year by renewable generation.
But, the price of the Windsave has doubled in the last 18 months (during which time it has not yet gone on public sale), and I think that �100 annual saving from it is rather optimistic.
(Windsave was "�750" in Jan 04 - see www.parliament.uk/commons/ lib/research/rp2004/rp04-010.pdf )
I really don't like to see marketing running quite so far ahead of reality - I think it risks giving a bad name to the whole renewable energy sector.
It is standard wind generator practice to look for 10x the height of an upwind obstacle as separation from the turbine.
ie you want the turbine 400 feet away from a 40 foot high house.
To avoid the need for planning permission (assuming you are in an ordinary area, not Conservation, Natural Beaty, whatever) the top of the thing has to be LOWER than the rooftop.
I think that rooftop mounting is INEVITABLY going to mean VERY INefficient 'harvesting' of the wind resource, as a result of screening and turbulence.
Have a look at the British Wind Energy Association's guide to siting small wind turbines:
https://www.bwea.com/you/siting.html
look specifically at the "bad sites" and "obstructions" diagrams and ask yourself if mounting actually ON a roof BELOW ridge height can possibly make sense.
Footprints - the thing has a stated 1.75m diameter turbine - its a lot bigger than a Sky dish, is going to produce rather greater structural loads (go on, frighten your building insurers by asking about it!), and it is much more conspicuous than a satellite dish - the eye is drawn to movement.
The amount of pre-publicity, the funding obtained and the wild claims (like the 13 amp plug) and performance claims that I personally doubt if it were to be mounted as described, make me very, very... cautious about this thing.
If you are in an exposed, windy rural site, without onerous planning restrictions - then go for a 'proper' turbine. Do have a look at this article:
https://www.downsizer.net/Projects/Sustainable_Building%10Energy_Efficiency/Wind_power_to_the_people!/
if you haven't already! |
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nathanbriggs
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Chester
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 05 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| dougal wrote: |
| marketing fantasy of the "13 amp plug" - don't editors think before they parrot such nonsense? Don't they realise that a 240 volt generator with exposed *plug* pins would be kinda dangerous... |
Not a marketing fantasy but an actuality, there is nothing in BS7671 which precludes the use of a 13Amp plug as a source of power as long as it safe to touch, this is why we have standardised tests for example on washing machines which have a large mains capacitor. Removal of the plug and touching the pins has to be safe, the energy must be below 50V within 2 cycles and less capacity than will stop a human heart, btw its still possible to get a little tingle if you are quick.
The windsave device is fitted with a plug, having said that most people will get it installed by a competent electrician who will promptly hard wire it.
Lastly the plug is standard but the socket requires a metal cover plate, this is Windsave going beyond the regulations to help with safety.
| dougal wrote: |
the price of the Windsave has doubled in the last 18 months (during which time it has not yet gone on public sale), and I think that �100 annual saving from it is rather optimistic.
(Windsave was "�750" |
The price has changed and has gone up but you are comparing �750 just for the equipment with �2000 for a fully fitted installation on an "average domestic home.
| dougal wrote: |
| I think that rooftop mounting is INEVITABLY going to mean VERY INefficient 'harvesting' of the wind resource, as a result of screening and turbulence. |
Agreed, but isn't even inefficient harvesting of a free unlimited resource better than inefficient use of limited resource like gas or oil?
| dougal wrote: |
| Footprints - the thing has a stated 1.75m diameter turbine - its a lot bigger than a Sky dish, is going to produce rather greater structural loads |
And the fitting consists of a 118mm pole attached to structural fixings unlike two screws for a satelitte dish
| dougal wrote: |
| If you are in an exposed, windy rural site, without onerous planning restrictions - then go for a 'proper' turbine. Do have a look at this article: |
And if your not you can't play?
I have been contiuously amazed at the scepticism for windsave but I really hoped for an open mind in forums like this.
As previously stated I work for Advance www.aelgroup.co.uk and we are associated with windsave so I am by definition biased, but please don't judge us before we come to market |
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex
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Nanny
Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales
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Blue Peter
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 2400
Location: Milton Keynes
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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| Posted: Wed Jun 22, 05 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| oilfiredup story linked by lozzie wrote: |
| While prices will not be confirmed until after the trials British Gas currently estimates that the turbines will retail at around �1500 which will include full installation. |
| tahir, quoting Enineer Online wrote: |
| While prices will not be confirmed until after the trials British Gas currently estimates that the turbines will retail at around �1500 which will include full installation. |
| dougal wrote: |
the price of the Windsave has doubled in the last 18 months (during which time it has not yet gone on public sale), ...
(Windsave was "�750" in Jan 04 |
Google-ing Windsave and �750 briings up 50 UK hits of which this is typical (from EcoEstates) "Windsave Ltd has developed a Commercial and Domestic wind-powered generator using low wind speeds to generate electricity. ... The turbine can generate around 750KW/hour and costs are around �750."
| nathanbriggs wrote: |
| The price has changed and has gone up but you are comparing �750 just for the equipment with �2000 for a fully fitted installation on an "average domestic home. |
Umm Nathan, is the current price expectation now �2,000 rather than the �1,500 of the late May 2005 press releases?
Or the �750 "costs" of the product that was already being described as "developed" in January 04? (Some even say the product was "launched" then!)
Nathan, I am a great advocate of renewable energy. But ONLY if it works, and is not commercially nonsensical.
With Windsave, I see a product where the marketing is some way ahead of the reality. So far ahead as to be detrimental to its perception, even, perhaps especially, among those enthusiastic about renewable energy.
You ask "...please don't judge us before we come to market" but this is a product that has been marketed for at least 18 months and is still not on sale.
It is a product where the marketing has greatly underestimated the likely final cost.
And its a product whose marketing claims of performance I believe to be rather optimistic, not least because of the roof shielding and turbulence effects I have drawn attention to.
So, we have heavy marketing of optimistic performance claims and an unrealistically low (but rising) 'estimate' of actual cost, plus an absence of real data... or even a real product on sale at a real price.
My mind is really still open, but I hope you can understand my growing scepicism.
I'm glad, but somewhat surprised (not least in light of your own posting on 23 March 2005 ("you can directly connect the Windsave power into the mains (although not by just plugging it in it must be hardwired)") https://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=36999#36999
to learn that the control unit has a "shut off" facility enabling it to be run into a plug with exposed pins.
As an outsider, I'd have expected the shut off facility to be much more expensive than requiring hardwiring in a similar fashion to a bathroom electric towel rail.
I'm puzzled that the Windsave might use any socket, and yet the Whispergen CHP boiler (now on sale �3000, fully installed, with 5 years service contract as a central heating boiler & 1.2kw generator) specifically needs its own dedicated spur back to the consumer unit. Any idea why?
Nathan, are you in a position to clarify EXACTLY HOW the Windsave is intended to be mounted?
A chimney mount above ridge level would obviously be ideal for performance. But I understand that raises questions of planning approval. And I'd expect, structural issues too, exacerbated by a long enough pole to allow the blades to clear the chimney pots.
Wall mounting a pole would have to be on a flat gable end, otherwise there are going to be 'issues' with roof overhang and guttering.
What are Windsave intending?
And do you know, and can you tell us, even approximately, just how many pre-production prototypes are actually running today? |
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nickg
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 3
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dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex
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Cashew
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 60
Location: UK
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tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex
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Brian Bannister
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