Vegan Organic Farming

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Vegan Organic Farming
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jamanda
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 22 Oct 2006
Posts: 35057
Location: Devon

Posted: Thu Nov 04, 10 9:05 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Good question! Yes, pet food will be a part of that weight.

I've always assumed that pets are un-vegan though. I'd be interested to know where they stand on carrion, however.

They don't stand so much as roll on it in my experience.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 10 8:21 am Post subject:
Does we assume that vegan organic farming is indefensible?

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 10 10:20 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Does we assume that vegan organic farming is indefensible?

No I think it's perfectly defensible as an environment beneficial form of farming.
Whether it could feed the nation is questionable unless the nation gets back to the land.
But the current means of food production is definitely indefensible, unsustainable & damaging to the environment.
As resources become scarcer & transport costs rise we are going to eat less intensively produced food anyway whether we like it or not.
& for the sake of the environment & human health IMHO that's a good thing.
One question I would like to ask the vegans amongst us is where do you stand on draught animals & animal produced natural fibres like wool?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Nov 28, 10 11:50 am Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Does we assume that vegan organic farming is indefensible?

No I think it's perfectly defensible as an environment beneficial form of farming.

I completely agree, but it's not vegan, because of the problems we've highlighted (ie that every action has a reaction and animals 'suffer' as a result of any human farming system.)

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 10 9:04 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

I completely agree, but it's not vegan, because of the problems we've highlighted (ie that every action has a reaction and animals 'suffer' as a result of any human farming system.)

And the opinion that 'vegan' farming does not kill animals can only exist in in the minds of those quite far removed from the farming itself. Anyone who turns a spade in the ground kills animals. Anyone who grows a crop deprives other animals of the habitat they need to sustain their lives.

The problem with us being sentient human beings is that we can't reasonably divorce the act of intentionally killing an animal from knowingly allowing an animal to die through our actions. Vegan farming exists within that ethical paradox.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 7:34 am Post subject:
I've just stumbled upon this blog which seems to be more about trying to take apart the idea that you can have sustainable livestock than offering any alternatives. I tried commenting on it but it seems his blog works about as well as his science. You don't need to criticise veganism when there are such shining examples as this chap.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 9:03 am Post subject:
The chap appears to have an issue counting to ten - oh, and including references to back up his statements

kirstyfern

Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 1574
Location: Great Dunmow, Essex

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 9:16 am Post subject:

Milo wrote:

So, pasture. Not very diverse, is it. I've not looked up any definitions, but make a distinction between pasture and grazing land, and consider pasture to be fields of grass, a mono-crop situation if ever there was one.

My pasture is very diverse - and organic, we have woodland, hedgerow, grassland, a man made pond with thick bushes around it for the wildlife and nesting birds and a natural free running stream - as a flood plain with a natural spring I couldn't use it for arable purposes, the animals utilise an area which would otherwise turn into a dumping ground / waste land, they also create diversity as they allow the small low growing plants to thrive rather than the whole place turning into nettles and thistles if it was just left (you can't get a tractor on to cut it as it is marshland)

kirstyfern

Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 1574
Location: Great Dunmow, Essex

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 9:21 am Post subject:
[quote="Bebo:1017987Anyway, more importantly, sheep tastes nicer than cabbages.[/quote]

Mrs R

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 7202

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 10:54 am Post subject:
anyone who thinks pasture is a monoculture wants their head looking at. Very ignorant indeed.

oldish chris

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 4148
Location: Comfortably Wet Southport

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 3:37 pm Post subject:

When it comes to biodiversity, I think we sometimes confuse the little picture with the big picture.

An analogy: a microscopic view of cholera is that it is to do with microbes in the gut, a macroscopic view is that it is to do with dirty water.

A microscopic view of biodiversity is about the number of species in a square metre, a macroscopic view is that it is to do with the range of environments and niches. I don't have a problem with vegans (as long as they don't have a problem with me). A vegan, organic, permaculture farm sounds like a good idea. I'd find a conducted tour of one quite interesting. (But I am the bloke that spent an evening evaluating "Zenwalk" Linux 'cos I liked the logo

).

Maybe the hunting and trapping Downsizers could tell me if vegan, organic permacultural wood pigeon or rabbit tastes better. (Can't resist a quick troll).

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 11 4:29 pm Post subject:
It's lucky that pasture can be diverse on a micro and macro basis then. I have no problems with vegans, providing their reasoning is sound but reading a 'lesson' from someone who doesn't actually know what 'protein quality' means is a bit sickening.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 11 8:08 pm Post subject:

I haven't read past the first page, and hope to do so soon. Just thought I'd state that I'm starting my 9th year on an animal-less, incredibly diverse (vegetable-wise) organic farm, that does rely on trucked-in animal manures for fertility.

As such, I feel that we could reduce our reliance on fossil fuels for trucking, get food and land management off of non-tillable land, sequester carbon more efficiently in the soil, and greatly reduce our wasted produce if we had some livestock integrated into our system.
As well as increase our customer base by meeting more food needs!

Having done plenty of study of sustainable agriculture and food systems, I think that poly-cultural agroforestry systems are incredibly powerful components of any very small scale production. It's going to be incredibly difficult to feed more than a small, dedicated, community-oriented population that way however (IMHO).

None of this is to take anything away from the work being done by the folks in that incredibly well-made video. We need all sorts of people experimenting with all types of agriculture to show us different approaches that are most suitable for different conditions.

In the veganism vs. livestock debate, Simon Fairlie's book "Meat, a benign extravagance" is the best, most unbiased thing I've read on the subject (Just starting it though, so only take my recommendation on the first 3 or 4 chapters). I would recommend it to anyone & everyone, regardless of diet & lifestyle choices.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 11 5:52 am Post subject:
Fairlie's book is on my to read list too - it looks very good, judging by his articles in Permaculture magazine. I think a point that is often overlooked is that diet is, more often than not, a direct result of geography, not personal choice nor the ideals that our modern technology and fuel use allows.

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