BBC Breakfast News Story about Recycling

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BBC Breakfast News Story about Recycling
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cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 8:45 am Post subject: BBC Breakfast News Story about Recycling

Guy on the BBC this morning extolling the virtues of recycling, going through a recyclng box to say what might happen to the materials there in. He talked about how a plastic bottle might end up keeping us warm as part of a fleece, fair enough I thought, but why not use it as a bottle? Then he pulled out a tin can and talked about it becoming another tin can or part of a bit of machinery. Okay, thinks I, can't do much else with it. Then out comes a wine bottle, and he said that it could become another wine bottle and that recycling it was therefore obviously worthwhile... Or, better yet, it could become the sand in a golf course bunker!

For pities sake...

Ther R's, reduce, reuse and recycle, in that order. We could, of course, take sand, melt it down, make a bottle, then grind up the bottle for sand. Or we could take a bottle, melt it down and make another bottle.

Or, we could seriously address the energy issue here and take the bottle, and use it again as a bottle!

Shop shelves are full of hundreds of designs of bottle, they're all SLIGHTLY different. Why not have, say, a dozen designs? Standardise them across Europe, and re-use them? How hard can that be? Why do we persist with the crazy practice of melting something down to make it again before we wake up?

Same goes for plastics, packing material and suchlike. Why are we composting cardboard boxes rather than reusing them? Why are we manufacturing millions of plastic bottles and then recycling them rathter than using simple, re-useable containers?

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 8:54 am Post subject:
Commercial realities, isn't a 500ml plastic coke bottle design patented? But don't stop there, why not have standardised car engines and common parts such as brakes, suspension etc, based on the most efficient design as another example, you reduce the manufacture and stockholding of spares, reduce carbon emmissions increase average fuel efficiency

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 8:59 am Post subject:
because that would be far too easy for people to keep the cars they've got and not buy new ones! I agree, but it will only come through legislation, as capitalism is thriving in this country! Which reminds me - There's no waste like home is on on thursday - not sure if its the first, 8.30 BBC2.

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:00 am Post subject:

Jonnyboy wrote:

Commercial realities, isn't a 500ml plastic coke bottle design patented?

But don't stop there, why not have standardised car engines and common parts such as brakes, suspension etc, based on the most efficient design as another example, you reduce the manufacture and stockholding of spares, reduce carbon emmissions increase average fuel efficiency

Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..

..as for glass bottles it would seem sensible. I think with plastic bottles reuse is problematic as they get squashed in transit and become damaged/unhygenic, hence the shredding and making fleece and insulation.

bagpuss

Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 10507
Location: cambridge

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:04 am Post subject:

I am now struggling to remember whether it was you or my mums OH who suggested that wine makers should just use like 6 different bottle designs and we should just return them for cleaning

Certainly most glassware could have this sort of model applied to them

As far as plastic containers go it might be a little more difficult but I don't think they would really need to make them that much more sturdy to make them more resusable then you just need big vasts of drinks, margerine and other such things and then it would be far easy but I suspect the manufacturers would have none of it

judith

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:06 am Post subject:
A small part of the problem is that manufacturers are not responsible for their packaging as they are in Germany. In the unlikely event that I would have a 500 ml Coke bottle, I can't hand it back to Mr Cola and demand that he reuse it or dispose of it in an environmentally friendly manner.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:14 am Post subject:

bagpuss wrote:

I am now struggling to remember whether it was you or my mums OH who suggested that wine makers should just use like 6 different bottle designs and we should just return them for cleaning

I've been saying precisely that for years; if your mums OH says the same thing then he is clearly a wiser man than I gave him credit for

Quote:

Certainly most glassware could have this sort of model applied to them

As far as plastic containers go it might be a little more difficult but I don't think they would really need to make them that much more sturdy to make them more resusable then you just need big vasts of drinks, margerine and other such things and then it would be far easy but I suspect the manufacturers would have none of it

Or start putting things back into re-useable glass bottles rather than plastic ones.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:14 am Post subject:

Behemoth wrote:

Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..

Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:22 am Post subject:

cab wrote:

Behemoth wrote:

Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..

Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market.

Not unless it was priced as cheaply as the crap alternative it wouldn't, why else aren't we all use eco light bulbs?

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:29 am Post subject:

Jonnyboy wrote:

cab wrote:

Behemoth wrote:

Ahh but this would stifle innovation they would argue..

Except of course that the truly innovative component would immediately corner the whole market.

Not unless it was priced as cheaply as the crap alternative it wouldn't, why else aren't we all use eco light bulbs?

Because light fittings are still compatible with crap light bulbs, and because the crap ones aren't priced according to their environmental damage. Go back to the example of car parts, your example that Behemoth was commenting on (and I was answering), a truly innovative change that is better than the existing component would replace the older components as newly constructed vehicles replaced older ones.

Not that I propose a one size fits all approach to the automotive industry, I'm just following through that argument to its rational conclusion.

@Calli

Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 1682
Location: Galway

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:29 am Post subject:
Once upon a time.......fizzy drinks were sold in returnable glass bottles. Now the handling and transportation costs have made this route prohibitive. It is always the transport and handling hidden costs to any product! Are we consuming such vast quantities all round? I am always horrified each trip to our recycling point by how much I am taking......and we are trying??????

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:38 am Post subject:

cab wrote:

I don't think the fittings has anything to do with it, unless you forced people to put eco only fittings in new homes.

What I'm saying in both cases is the commercial realities get in the way, an eco light bulb is a fantastic innovation, but people don't care enough to fit them in their houses.

Take ABS in cars, it's great and it saves lives, but many cars are still sold without it as standard.

Going back to the bottle thing, great idea but coke will never agree to it. As you pointed out with the environmental aspect of light bulbs, we need legislation to push these things through.

I guess one of the problems was the advent of plastic bottles which did away with the deposit on glass ones, we should bring that back.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:42 am Post subject:

Building regs now state that energy saving light bulb fittings must be fitted in at least 3/10 rooms in any new house. Himself fits them in all rooms cos its easier that working out how many he needs, and people immediately request that they are removed, usually having never tried them, or having any good reason why they don't want them.

I suppose at least recylcing is getting people to start taking responisbility for their waste - no-one changes habits overnight, I guess. We recylce a lot, and I don't worry too much about it at the moment, as I think we still bin too much, so I'm concentrating on that at the moment.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:42 am Post subject:

Jonnyboy wrote:

I don't think the fittings has anything to do with it, unless you forced people to put eco only fittings in new homes.

I was hinting at that, yes.

Quote:

What I'm saying in both cases is the commercial realities get in the way, an eco light bulb is a fantastic innovation, but people don't care enough to fit them in their houses.

That's enturely true, because the cost of lightbulbs isn't related to environmental cost of using them. The sensible environmental approach would be to change that.

Quote:

Take ABS in cars, it's great and it saves lives, but many cars are still sold without it as standard.

Think of it in terms of the standard car components argument; suppose ABS were required as standard in new vehicles? How would that change things? Would that in any way inhibit new innovation?

Quote:

Going back to the bottle thing, great idea but coke will never agree to it. As you pointed out with the environmental aspect of light bulbs, we need legislation to push these things through.

Then coke can stick their bottles where the sun doesn't shine

Really, they aren't the only company to haver distinctive containers, and the commercial interests of a few do not outweigh the environmental beefits.

Quote:

I guess one of the problems was the advent of plastic bottles which did away with the deposit on glass ones, we should bring that back.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 05 9:51 am Post subject:

My point on ABS was that it's a fantastic innovation that hasn't immediately cornered the market.

What we seem to be converging on is that many of these innovations that benefit the environment are stymied by market forces and the fact that environmentally damaging products are cheaper to produce and sell, and have the benefit of an existing volume market.

It seems that more environmental legislation is the only way forward. Hopefully it could be in the form of short term support.

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