Gas fired turbines

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Gas fired turbines
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Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 12:57 am Post subject: Gas fired turbines

Who would have thought in the height of summer they had to fire up a coal fired power station because there was not enough energy being generated,the still days there was not enough wind to turn the wind turbines,but for some reason i quite don`t understand,gas fired power stations cannot work to full capacity in the warm weather.

According to the climate experts we are looking to get warmer temperatures in the years to come,and that usually gives periods of still days,and of course the push for electric vehicles,so is 2025 the year that miracles are supposed to happen.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15981

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 8:13 am Post subject:
In this area we are getting a lot more solar farms, but they don't work so well in hot weather; come to that, I don't either. Has been quite still here the last few days, so wind turbines probably not doing much. It does worry me that we are heading for an all electric future with a total lack of planning. I can't see it working without investment in infraastructure.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46233
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 12:16 pm Post subject:
tides are reliable

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 12:32 pm Post subject:

https://electrek.co/2020/08/12/tesla-big-battery-shows-record-mw-range-expansion/

There's ways and means. This is VERY far from being mature tech. Huge amount of research going in to panels and batteries right now.

I'm fairly confident we'll be able to generate cleanly in the next couple of decades but unless our material wants are curtailed then it makes no difference.

Making more shit=more environmental impact.
Eating more meat=more environmental impact

Just had vegan meatballs from Iceland with spaghetti, actually quite nice.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 12:32 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

tides are reliable

Why the Severn hasn't got a working barrage up yet is beyond me. It was being talked about when I was a kid!

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 12:51 pm Post subject:
There's lots of more interesting tech coming about that will help. Electric cars charging at night when there is often surplus power, and then during the day, ones that aren't on the road can becoming an enormous decentralized battery bank. I mention it in most of these threads, but I'll mention it again, check out the fully charged YouTube channel.

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8933
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Thu Aug 13, 20 8:20 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

dpack wrote:

tides are reliable

Why the Severn hasn't got a working barrage up yet is beyond me. It was being talked about when I was a kid!

The most power efficient apparently without being an ecological nightmare was thought to be lagoons, instead of a barrier across the Severn. You only have to see Cardiff Bay to be glad that they didn't do that to the Severn Estuary..they have to oxygenate it with pumps...
That is also well proven technology, as with tidal mills.
Why didn't it happen? Who knows. Possibly because they wouldn't have been such a big ££££ project?

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15981

Posted: Fri Aug 14, 20 7:49 am Post subject:

As you say Gz, there are downsides to things like the Severn barrage. Perhaps where a barrage has to be put in to prevent flooding, like the Thames barrage, incorporating turbines might be a good idea. Lots of small with batteries seems far less environmentally unfriendly as with tide mills etc.

I have been watching this technology unfold for over 50 years, and in some ways we are coming on well, but over 45 years ago we were interested in solar power for the home, and it has taken until the last few years to materialise.

As for meat, I would dispute going vegan/vegetarian as an aim. In this area we have a lot of grazing land that is unsuitable for growing crops. It has been tried and failed as the land is too steep and too stony. It seems to me that we need to consider carefully how meat is produced, and what the alternatives are. The options for vegetable protein in the UK are pretty limited, so there needs to be a balance between importing vegetable protein v locally produced meat. I think scale and use are two of the major issues. Using as much of the carcass as possible and using the vegetable protein available are of course the most important ways we can minimise our impact here.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 4:19 am Post subject: Re: Gas fired turbines

Ty Gwyn wrote:

for some reason i quite don`t understand,gas fired power stations cannot work to full capacity in the warm weather.

The air is less dense on warm days meaning less combustion per unit volume sucked into the turbine, which equals less power. You may not notice it, but you get the same phenomenon with your car - it will have less power on a hot summer day than in the winter. It's a lot more noticeable on a sports bike, due to the higher power/weight ratio - I used to have to be careful on my old two-stroke, as the front wheel would pop up unexpectedly on a hot day due to the extra boost.

Also, the big industrial gas turbines can approach the limit of their exhaust temperature on hot days (ours really struggle in the summer with 50°C ambient temperature). You can install evaporative cooling systems on the air inlet, but they need massive quantities of deionised water, so from an overall energy balance point of view they're not necessarily justifiable.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 4:27 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

As for meat, I would dispute going vegan/vegetarian as an aim. In this area we have a lot of grazing land that is unsuitable for growing crops. It has been tried and failed as the land is too steep and too stony. It seems to me that we need to consider carefully how meat is produced, and what the alternatives are. The options for vegetable protein in the UK are pretty limited, so there needs to be a balance between importing vegetable protein v locally produced meat. I think scale and use are two of the major issues. Using as much of the carcass as possible and using the vegetable protein available are of course the most important ways we can minimise our impact here.

Livestock manure is also a fairly good fertiliser, I believe. I'm a fan of the circular farming philosophy, in which waste from crop growth is fed to livestock and the resultant manure used to fertilise the crops. Obviously there is still a need for external animal feed and agrichemicals, but I'd like to see a holistic study that looks at the overall process, including environmental impact of the production of the external feed and chemicals versus the Big Agriculture method of only growing a single crop and blitzing it with chemicals.

Also worth pointing out that recycling the manure, in combination with responsible crop management (rotation, green manure, fallow periods, etc.) can also significantly reduce soil erosion, which is a looming issue that could be potentially catastrophic to the human species.

This thread seems to have diverged somewhat

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15981

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 6:54 am Post subject:

We do thread divergence very well here.

I always noticed on my two stroke moped (never graduated to a motor bike) that it seemed to be more powerful on damp days; probably because of the cooling. It would go a bit over 30mph rather than being happy cruising at just under. As for power, going 2 up on it, my husband managed to accidentally do a wheelie once and dropped me and the back number plate off the back. I thought I was very restrained in just saying that was a bit silly.

Although I don't think they actually practice completely circular farming, the place I get my meat from does grow some crops which I think get sent for processing into animal feed. They have pigs, cows and crops, so tend to keep a few fields for specific things and circulate the animals and crops on some others. Because they slaughter all year, they do have to feed the cows during the winter, but overall, the balance of crops and animals must be about net balance. Although I think the pigs in the same village are part of a rather large, mainly pig, farm, they do move them around and grow maize on the fields after they have had pigs on them. Again, I think the maize goes for fodder, but not sure for what.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 9:39 am Post subject:

Thanks for the explanation Shane,i was thinking myself why not get the cooling on the air inlet from a refridgerating unit,but i`m no engineer.
But as Gas has been flouted as the main back up for the Green energy when coal is phased out in 2025 and we are supposed to get hotter,there needs to be some serious thinking going on,or otherwise we are going to be up the proverbial creek without a paddle.
I never noticed with my first motor bike a BSA Bantam 2 stroke,but i`ve certainly been quarelling with my chainsaw in this hot weather,lol.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45674
Location: Essex

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 10:46 am Post subject:
Serious thinking, with BoJo and Trump as leaders?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46233
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Aug 17, 20 10:53 am Post subject:

on the wetlands of yorkshire a mix of grazing and cutting hay/hayledge is the only viable option

apart from a bit of fuel the system is closed, sun water and land management by moo is sustainable(sort of)but could not feed 65 million folk even if scaled up to use all the suitable land.

reclaim the grouse moors etc might be another decent and large space to raise sustainable protein

back the leccy things, i recon the tech is now available to be carbon zero in use, the carbon industry will continues to resist it and he who pays the piper etc.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 20 4:13 am Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

Thanks for the explanation Shane,i was thinking myself why not get the cooling on the air inlet from a refridgerating unit,but i`m no engineer.

Refrigeration needs a significant amount of energy - I suspect you'd use more power to cool the air inlet that you would recover from the improvement in turbine output.

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