pump storage, low volume high density

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pump storage, low volume high density
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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:49 am Post subject: pump storage, low volume high density

interesting idea for pump storage

a bit messy to install but once the two big holes and trench are dug, lined and covered there is only minimal stuff overground, and even much of that could go underground is it justified the extra costs, ie pretty places etc

it seems to have some merit as energy storage for surge demand and over supply by renewables in the right locations

from the maps they have only looked at part of the world but i can think of a few further away places that are mostly hills, japan and NZ spring to mind among others

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 11:35 am Post subject:

Yep - it's definitely part of the way forward for smoothing out the peaks and troughs from renewables. The idea has been around for a few years now, but these guys use a high-density fluid which means they can scale down the design for the same storage capacity. A facility that does the same thing differently by storing compressed air in a salt cavern was being built in the south a couple of years back - not sure how that got on. Air is, of course, less efficient due to the compressibility, but still a useful facility to have dotted around here and there.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 1:43 pm Post subject:
Yeah, I remember hearing of water and air being pumped into old mine shafts/caves/salt caverns to act as batteries. Smart. Maybe we'll get there...

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:13 pm Post subject:
Where in the South were these salt caverns Shane? Heard about the mention of compressed air in salt caverns several years back,would have thought condensation in the compressed air would cause problems with the salt,it seem`s to have gone quiet since.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:32 pm Post subject:
Cheshire salt mines, operational in 2022 apparently: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 2:56 pm Post subject:

tahir wrote:

Cheshire salt mines, operational in 2022 apparently:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/18/worlds-biggest-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk

Yes i`m aware of the Winsford salt mines and Boulby up the North East and NI of course,mate of mine does rescue safety training in all 3,
Just wondered if there was one more South i had`nt heard of.

Interesting project in Manchester.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 3:08 pm Post subject:
re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 4:59 pm Post subject:
Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15997

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 6:13 pm Post subject:

I hope their fluid really is as safe as they claim. I have come across too many 'wonder chemical' like CFCs that didn't live up to their promises. CFCs were developed to replace more toxic and corrosive chemicals in things like vapour cleaning and degreasing in the electronics industry where things like carbon tetrachloride were used or to replace things like ammonia in refrigeration. Sadly, they caused other problems. At least we know where we are with water.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 7:18 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

Costs for these approaches will have to be competitive with simple stacks of old electric car batteries, which will become more and more plentiful as time goes on

yep

75% is getting a bit tired for a car but a pile of them and some fans should work fine as storage for smoothing

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:03 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

re mines the big weight up and down a deep hole may have some merit for reusing the main drop shafts as energy storage for surge supply

Listen for the big splash,lol,in South Wales anyway.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 21 8:46 pm Post subject:
most places, but pumps must be plausible in some

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 5:21 am Post subject:

Car batteries are not a great solution in my opinion. They are used as the basis for most uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs) and they are something of a nightmare. For starters, they fail every five years or so, which means that when you have a large bank of them you are constantly having to change them out. They also give off hydrogen during the charge cycle, which causes obvious issues.

I've been trying to push to get lithium batteries trialled for UPS systems but with no success so far. They take up less than half the space, don't give off hydrogen, and last for many, many years. Forget all the horror stories about them exploding - this is always caused by going for the lowest bidder when it comes to procuring the control systems.

Last edited by Shane on Thu Feb 11, 21 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 11:45 am Post subject:
I could have been more specific. I meant lithium electric car batteries, not lead acid which give of hydrogen. There are companies that are very keen to reclaim the lithium batteries from EVs and turn them into grid storage.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 21 1:40 pm Post subject:
lead acid stuff is carp(i have used it small scale but tis carp for that as well), lion ex ecocar when it gets to say 75% charge capacity would be an ace way to store energy, extend useful worklife before recycle and cut costs for having a newish battery in the ecocar

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