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Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16006

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 23 7:26 am Post subject:
You could also try looking for shellac in odd places like ceramic work. We used to use it to attack alumina substrates to backing so they could be cut with a diamond saw. These low tack plastics of the right tackiness came along and superceded that, which was a good thing as it was a brute to remove every last trace so the substrate could be used for microelectronics.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 23 8:09 am Post subject:

the shellac i found, good price and the correct grade, was listed as technical grade and marketed at french polishers

a similar spec marketed at "artists" is about 20 times the price per kilo

the "biofuel" is about a tenth of the price of "lab grade" with a similar spec

at a rough guess, buying "art" materials costs about ten times as much as buying the material you need for art things by seeking the stuff being sold for more mundane purposes, such as food additives or "biofuel" for your delightful table-top fireplace

(those look really daft and more than a little problematic on safety grounds)

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 8964
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 23 8:15 am Post subject:
You might find shellac in a bike shop where track riders go..some still use shellac to stick tubular tyres on for Velodrome riding.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Apr 26, 23 9:07 am Post subject:

ps , pigments are pigments, if it is the right pigment the price is just one of those things

however it is possible to find a better pigment that might be far cheaper
it will still be daft expensive per gram

this is a matter of deep shopping until you find something suitable, if you do keep looking as there is a better choice out there somewhere

for example, i got some half decent ink made from oil soot for about £7 for a stick. a reasonable value price
the pine soot ink was two sticks for £5 and is awesome good quality, frugal shopping bargain, if i had tried this in a shop i would have paid far more for it

sometimes the £5 "bargain" is £1 rubbish, i can live with that occasionally if most of the time i get good value stuff that covers that wastage manyfold in an average shopping basket

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 23 9:19 am Post subject:

gz wrote:

You might find shellac in a bike shop where track riders go..some still use shellac to stick tubular tyres on for Velodrome riding.

i wonder where they get theirs? i spose the "stickyness" is more important than colour for tyres to rims fixing

the different types have assorted colours, they also have different chemical and physical characteristics
dewaxed is very different not dewaxed etc, colour is from almost invisible in a thin varnish to dark red with a few layers using different types

the solvents and method of making gum or varnish alter the properties of the product

ambient conditions, especially temp and humidity, have a huge effect on how the stuff behaves

i only need mine to hold pigments in place on a page for as long as possible, bikers need to hold the tyre on the rim while extreme riding and be able to get if off tidily when replacing it

metal to rubber is always a challenge, they move differently
all the materials in my task move differently, until i stick em in place

fun this stuff

crossover of materials is fascinating

if i decide i need "fish glue" i will not be in an art shop, brewers isinglass is swim bladder glue if you mix it thickly

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Tue May 02, 23 5:59 pm Post subject:

2 gm dewaxed blond shellac
10 gm 97% "bioethanol"

gives a roughly 25% wt vol cut

very nice, it worked over quite delicate water and gum based paints without them moving around, it enhances colours and shiny bits

im rather pleased with it, i can mix enough for a week or two and reduce waste(the stuff does not keep more than a few months), it seems to have good properties and it is a fraction of the price of "artist's shellac varnish"

the gesso thing is a bit more urgent and the artists stuff works for my purpose, i am trying a similar product different firm for half the price
it takes quite a lot to give a deep, flexible, workable surface on decent paper

to make this stuff i would need to learn about different acrylic glues that could be used as the binder etc(old style grosso and sotile with bunny boiling, poison and few weeks prep, i can do, probably a bad idea

)

for the mo gesso that does what i want it to is in the same basket as the right pigments

PS the shellac varnish works as a single well applied and feathered coat, in multiple layers, done properly, it would do french polishing or lacquer work very well

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Wed May 03, 23 5:37 pm Post subject:

the shellac is shiny dry with no tack

i got brave, folded it onto the prepped page next to it and popped in the book cover

if it does not stick the pages together, it is a great addition to the paintbox

if it does, it would still be good on single sheet work

ps it drops the white ground to a pale flake white rather than the bright white of the tio2 in the gesso
i like that it looks like lead white, but it is rather less toxic
it is possible to scrape back the shellac for that extra white look that tio2 gives

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Thu May 04, 23 5:33 am Post subject:
ha ha ha ha no stickyness and far better value than when sold as 75ml mixed in a bottle by an artist's materials supplier

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Fri May 12, 23 5:46 pm Post subject:
delete, oops, post rather than data drop yellow mountain, pine soot, ink stick that should get you to Amazon for the last of the 8 pairs of these a fraction of the price of most top quality carbon pigments now i have one to use and 3 in store, go hunting if you need ink or black paint

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 23 7:40 pm Post subject:

with a little help from tt, £4 has a "make up" brush heading my way

i was having issues with silly prices, indeterminate "bristles" and other problems for a poke the tiny bit of gold onto the myrrh gum, very gently, sort of tool

move the stuff is easy, sometimes gently poking it into place before burnishing requires a fluffy clump on a stick

i will see if it works, the electrostatic considerations could be interesting, it is a nought+ cheaper than things sold for the job

repurposed can be very frugal if it works

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16006

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 23 9:53 am Post subject:

Yes, make up brushes can be quite useful for other things. All sorts of bits, some broken, can be useful for odd jobs. I have done brick pointing using a broken metal bucket handle.

I cut parts out of 4pt plastic milk containers to make 'jugs' for pouring wax, and the plastic is also useful for making templates for spoons or anything else. Remember the cardboard discs with a hole cut out of the centre we used to use for making pom poms when I was a child rather than the fancy plastic things you can buy these days. Tablet weaving can also be done with 'tablets' of thick card with holes punched near the corners.

I know; a selection of very random crafts showing either I am very versatile or a jack of all trades master of none.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46249
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 23 2:46 pm Post subject:

an update, the shellac at 30% wt wt in 97% abs ethanol works a treat in thin layers with mulberry paper to create a very strong and resilient multi layer composite

i have done a 5 layer reinforcing strip to both edges of the core, the result seems acceptable

it was done slowly between layers, 3 applications of shellac per layer
oddly surprising how the result is similar to carbon fibre resin composites

using silk as well as paper could be a very green way to make light strong things, i am sort of up for trying it in other ways, tis light and quick work, then wait and repeat, so very little effort is needed(at least for smallish stuff)

by trying to follow the basics of the oriental techniques, even a first try has produced a satisfactory and quite pretty result

in other arty news
the brush arrived, spose i need a page with myrrh in the right places on the gesso to give it a try. i need the words for that page, the opening image is done, the story bit not yet

i wonder if runic looks as cute as latin script

odin is perfect for monkish psychedelia, sketch work, words, script, font, layout and embellishments are still undecided
4 pages is quite a task

maybe i will do thor or freya next and let the words develop from a set of pictures
the ravens turned out well, wolf or puss are attractive options to try next

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16006

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 23 9:56 am Post subject:
The shellac and paper sounds useful. If the fibres on each layer of paper are placed at right angles or the fibres are really randomly orientated (don't know much about mulberry paper) it could be very sturdy. Only trouble might be heat as the shellac will soften. We used to use it go hold down substrates while diamond cutting, and removed it with hot water.

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