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cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

What's the soil like under the grass? Any good? I might be tempted by a modified lazy bed in the fist year; put a layer of good muck along the middle of where you want a bed, cover that with something like newspaper or straw, and turn the grass from either side of it on top (so you've got two grass faces inwards on top of the manure and straw/newspaper). Let it rot for a while, and plant the spuds in that. Obviously not for the root crops, of course!

As for the rest of it... I dunno, I'm not comfortable with diggers, seems like you're putting a lot of weithg on soil that you want to have good structure. My approach towards converting grass to veg plot has always been to turn the grass over with a spade and let it rot in. Seems to work okay.

What kind of area you looking at converting to a veg patch? I guess we're looking at something comparable to an allotment plot?

Jonnyboy



Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Good luck, under my grass I found loads of stones, concealing more stones

judith



Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Just be prepared for everything to take longer than you expect it to. It took three of us most of one weekend with the digger to get the ground marked out, cleared and levelled.

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

cab wrote:
What kind of area you looking at converting to a veg patch? I guess we're looking at something comparable to an allotment plot?


Roughly

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Jonnyboy wrote:
Good luck, under my grass I found loads of stones, concealing more stones


I've dug down about a foot and it's not looking too bad, I'll have to see.

Bugs



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

cab wrote:
a modified lazy bed...a layer of good muck...Obviously not for the root crops, of course!


Ah, I knew there was something wrong with my memory!

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Judith wrote:
Just be prepared for everything to take longer than you expect it to. It took three of us most of one weekend with the digger to get the ground marked out, cleared and levelled.


How big an area? I think that'll determine how big I go to start with

tahir



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Bugs wrote:
I once read about a system called lazy beds in the Kitchen Garden magazine, which was I think part of a rotation, involving potatoes (maybe root veg too) as the first crop, to break up the soil without requiring too much manpower. Obviously this would mean getting to play with less machinery, but I am sure that it was supposed to be used in Ireland for just the purpose Tahir is after, ie new vegetable gardens (only on a cottage scale). Has anyone tried this? I thought maybe I have read about it here too.


Good idea

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Bugs wrote:
I once read about a system called lazy beds in the Kitchen Garden magazine, which was I think part of a rotation, involving potatoes (maybe root veg too) as the first crop, to break up the soil without requiring too much manpower. Obviously this would mean getting to play with less machinery, but I am sure that it was supposed to be used in Ireland for just the purpose Tahir is after, ie new vegetable gardens (only on a cottage scale). Has anyone tried this? I thought maybe I have read about it here too.


The lazy bed system used up in the Hebrides and in Ireland wasn't quite the same as what Kitchen Garden published, but it was nonetheless a fascinating way of getting the most out of a very poor and very thin soil.

The concept is that you put the soil around the outside of the beds onto the beds, typically turning any grass over on top of it as I described in the last post, and that establishes the basis of the lazy bed. You fertilise that with plenty of muck (your typical croft had sheep and a cow or two, so no shortage of that!), and if your croft was close to the sea you also mulched with seaweed. You plant your spuds in there (in the first year, of course, there's more weeding) and then dress it with straw, if you have any, or reeds, or yellow flag. Back in the days of thatshed roofs, hebridean farmers would use last years thatch as a mulch, said thatch being full of tar from burning peat fires in the house all winter, and this went a long way to reducing insect and fungal pests. After growing potatoes, you grow wheat; that's your crop rotation!

You still see the outlines of these beds in hebridean crofts; many of the crofts still have sheep grazing them, but most don't cultivate spuds and wheat any more. The old lazy beds have coarser, thicker grass on them. Up in county Donegal in Ireland you can still see where people abandoned the land in some places during the potato famine, their old farms picked out by the lazy beds. Even in many of the upland areas of England you see their old furrow patters on land that is now considered too steep and thin soiled for crops, but on which sheep still graze.

Talking to real old timers in Donegal, I never encountered the practice of using old thatch as a mulch for the potato crop. I wonder whether this is anything to do with why potato blight hit much harder in Ireland than in the Hebrides?

Last edited by cab on Wed Jan 04, 06 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Bugs wrote:
cab wrote:
a modified lazy bed...a layer of good muck...Obviously not for the root crops, of course!


Ah, I knew there was something wrong with my memory!


No, nothing wrong with your memory, its my phraseology thats bad! Potatoes should be fine with this, but carrots, parsnips, salsify etc. (anything you want to be good and straight without branching into forks) would struggle in the first year.

Behemoth



Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Re compaction - before my time they used a digger to clear our allotment when it got beyond control. Mine was one of the plots cleared and I commented about how it didn't appear compacted. The blokes involved said they had thought about this and made a plan of attack ensuring that they always worked backwards, digging over what they'd just travelled across and minimising digger movements in the first place. They went all wistfull eyed when talking about it.

judith



Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:
How big an area? I think that'll determine how big I go to start with


About 30' x 80'. Should have made it 100' long though - and levelled the bit for the polytunnel properly.

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

tahir wrote:

Roughly


In which case, if its grass, you might rekon on turning it over and dig it with a spade in three or four days of good hard graft? All depending on whats underneath, of course.

Bugs



Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

cab wrote:
Bugs wrote:
cab wrote:
a modified lazy bed...a layer of good muck...Obviously not for the root crops, of course!


Ah, I knew there was something wrong with my memory!


No, nothing wrong with your memory,


I'd forgotten about the muck though! That's what didn't seem right and why I thought root crops would work. I wonder if you could use anything else in the first year..what about Jerusalem artichokes . Would it be too compacted/fresh for beans etc, since there's the idea of planting them in to trenches of very new composting material?

Do you want to mention to Tahir what a good article it would make, or shall I?

cab



Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 06 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
    

Bugs wrote:

I'd forgotten about the muck though! That's what didn't seem right and why I thought root crops would work. I wonder if you could use anything else in the first year..what about Jerusalem artichokes . Would it be too compacted/fresh for beans etc, since there's the idea of planting them in to trenches of very new composting material?


I'm sure that Jerusalem artichokes would be fine in there, once the muck has rotted down a little. Beans might do okay, but they don't so much shade out their competition as spuds do, so they'll take more weeding. Then the whole concept of the bed being 'lazy' starts to fall down a little Crops that did best in lazy beds were those that outcompeted their neighbours, so cereals and spuds are the way to go, really.

We were really lucky to have stayed with Ellies great aunt on the Isle of Lewis this summer, this tough old octagenarian who still grows her own spuds wouldn't have it that we could stay on the island anywhere but in her house. And she would blather on for hours about life in the black houses, on the crofts. Fascinating stuff.

[/quote]
Do you want to mention to Tahir what a good article it would make, or shall I?[/quote]

Be my guest.

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