what shall we do with additional land?

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what shall we do with additional land?
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yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 9:46 am Post subject: what shall we do with additional land?

it's planning time now and we'd welcome any input and suggestions. The next stage (probably) will be to apply for an orchard planting and new native hedge grant and sort out bridging the gap (literally) between the two parts, which at present is 15ft of bramble, nettle and various wild thorny things surrounding a storm ditch about 3ft deep. The new hedge and stockfence will be along the southeast side. The dimensions of the new area are approx 80x40 metres. There's an overhead power line 1/3 up. The apple trees were grubbed out over the last ten years but before that it was an orchard for at least 200 years.

The land rises about 2 metres up to the northern corner and floods in the next field down. There's a beautiful view from the top corner.
Housing would be fraught with difficulties.

We also have to insert a new gateway onto the road from the old orchard on an approximate line with the 'bridge', which will involve applying for planning permission. There's an ancient and well-used fox and badger right-of-way diagonally across both orchards.

The orchard grant people would prefer local cider apple trees, other apples and fruit are allowed, but all trees must be traditional full standards. At present we have Crimson King, Coat Jersey, Tom Putt and Morgan Sweet cider apples and 30 varieties of traditional cooking and dessert apples plus some pear, plum and quince trees. I have room for 30 standard trees, including six that I'll move from the southern end of the existing orchard to keep that area as clear as possible of trees. I'm thinking 6 local cider trees, 6 modern apples, 6 'other' fruit and 6???. I'll also have a nursery area to propagate some of the old rare trees we already have.

Of course, we could ignore the grant and plant whatever type of tree we wish. Any ideas about how to economically join the two fields to allow tractor access ( the ditch is dry 11 months and essential the other) and suggestions of fruit varieties, or other uses I haven't even considered?

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 9:56 am Post subject:
So you're on a SE facing slope in Somerset? Sod the grants, plant loads of different stuff: Apricots All sorts of nuts Persimmons PawPaws Figs Etc....

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 10:04 am Post subject:
yaay flings traditional safety to the winds

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 10:08 am Post subject:
Vines (dessert if you don't want to make your own wine) Kiwis (deliciosa and arguta) How acid are you? Maybe a cranberry/bilberry/blueberry patch in the wetter bit?

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 10:12 am Post subject:
Martin does well with chestnuts in Devon

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 10:51 am Post subject:

Roughly how much would the grant be and are there any other conditions that you'd rather not have? Do you have many pests in the area? If you have loads of squirrels for example you'll need to be prepared to control them to plant nuts etc.

As for the ditch I have a similar problem. We have a track that needs to be usable for vehicles but we need to join two ditches together to take storm and spring water away. I need to look into what to do but from wandering about various woodlands the simplest thing would be a large diameter plastic pipe (say 2 to 3 foot or so) placed in the ditch and rubble placed on top. There must be pipes that are designed to take traffic but I'm not sure where to get advice to do the job properly.

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 11:08 am Post subject:

my reply disappeared in the crash (is it my fault, Jema?)

Whilst there's no reason not to plant more, we've got vines and kiwis growing over the veg garden paths, and a Black Hamburg grape in the polytunnel. They'd certainly gallop along the fence. Lots of selfrooting blackberry types in the fruit cage could shift too, and a selfsown morello cherry seedling.

We've got two huge sweet chestnuts, planted about 16 years ago, and hazels in the hedges - rabbits deer and squirrels are around the village, they keep clear but squirrels venture into dog and cat zones when our nuts are ready to pick.

The soil is 12-18 inches of heavy clay over shale (at least ours is, I haven't trial dug the new bit). Blackcurrants grow well, don't like them myself but they could be sold. I've got a feijoa in the fruit cage that could move, another in the polytunnel that's huge and probably wouldn't like the shock. But it would be good to reclaim the space, so it may have to take its chances next spring. I could trench cut the roots now to prepare it. Apricots would be good, I like the look of the new 'cot varieties, I've planted a couple near the house and they're doing well.

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 11:11 am Post subject:
The grant is �10 per tree, so about 50%. I've been advised by 'Planning' to speak to the Environment Agency about the ditch, but I haven't drawn their attention to my intentions yet.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45669
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 11:14 am Post subject:

yummersetter wrote:

I like the look of the new 'cot varieties, I've planted a couple near the house and they're doing well.

Don't discount the old ones, Early Moorpark and Alfred have both done well for us

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 12:16 pm Post subject:

yummersetter wrote:

I've been advised by 'Planning' to speak to the Environment Agency about the ditch, but I haven't drawn their attention to my intentions yet.

This might be a useful bit of background reading.

https://handbooks.btcv.org.uk/handbooks/content/section/2326

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 12:39 pm Post subject:
that's really good - thank you for that link. I hadn't been able to find anything nearly that appropriate on my searching for culvert info.

Bebo

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12590
Location: East Sussex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 12:45 pm Post subject:

You'll need some idea of peak flow in order to get the pipe big enough (if it isn't and it floods will it affect anyone?). Absolute minimum cover (dimension between top of pipe and finished ground level after you have backfilled) is generally 0.8m for something that will have to carry vehicles. If I get a chance later I'll try to dig out some information on the calculations you need to do.

You may need to get EA approval as well (James might be able to help on that one).

Have you considered a couple of large steel beams with railway sleeps across them (and bolted through). That's what my neighbour put in to get his tractors across a stream. Less likely to reduce flow in the ditch and relatively easily removable if necesasry.

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 2:56 pm Post subject:

the water flows north to south, so any flooding would just overflow onto the orchard either side - too much going through and coming over the bank going round the corner would and does affect the house below, so in a way a culvert would be beneficial in that it'd slow the flow.

I'm starting to think that the construction costs would be too much to justify the occasional heavy tractor crossing though, more likely to be a ride-on mower or the like. It would be possible to access from the northern edge of the fence, so we'll think more about a sleeper bridge than pipework. Can't the sleepers be put onto concrete um 'banks' (for lack of a better term) either side. And wouldn't they rot out eventually?

Bebo

Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 12590
Location: East Sussex

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 3:37 pm Post subject:
I think the term you are looking for might be abutments. That would have the sleepers spanning the ditch. Probably not strong enough for a tractor and more difficult to fix at either end. I was meaning two large beams spanning the river, with the sleepers stretching across between these. If its a mini-tractor or quad bike type thing then something more lightweight would work.

yummersetter

Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 3241
Location: Somerset

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 09 4:18 pm Post subject:
ah hah, now I understand yes - that's a good idea, I wasn't thinking laterally Round our way we tend to chuck an old bedstead across and pray, so two sleepers from bank to bank the width of the tractor tyres apart would be considered overengineered

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