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Downsizer Forum Index -> Small Business Questions, Ideas and Advice

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stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 13 4:08 am Post subject:

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 13 8:47 am Post subject:
Isn't it for the employee rather than the employer to determine if they can be self employed, from a tax pov? The employer doesn't have to know what else the employee does, but the employee will obviously know if they are doing multiple contracts? I know it's not that simple however.

stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 13 9:05 am Post subject:

You could adopt that position Nick. But, what if you were wrong, and I believe that you are. If HMRC then came after you for the relevant records, Nat Ins, real-time PAYE and all sorts of other things?

The link provide a relatively clear guide to who would be considered self employed and who is employed.

In the example given the person who does 3 other jobs might be considered to be S/E as they work for others and if they can turn down the work offered.

sg

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 13 9:46 am Post subject:
Oh, I agree, and talking to HMRC is the way forward, but do you know your employees can/cannot take extra work? Either way, I suspect this is where a half decent accountant will pay for themselves quickly. Or make an appointment to go visit your tax office.

Pel

Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 13 9:57 pm Post subject:
double post, where's delete gone? Last edited by Pel on Wed Jun 05, 13 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Pel

Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge

Posted: Wed Jun 05, 13 9:59 pm Post subject:

stumbling goat wrote:

https://www.hmrc.gov.uk/leaflets/es-fs1.pdf

The link above may help you determine what you can or can not do regarding employed or self employed status of those who work for you? You may wish to treat them as a self employed contractor but if HMRC say you can not then maybe you can not?

Do you keep written auditable records of the training that you give to your sitters?

I have not given my current one any training

Do you have a job description that determines what they have to do and are responsible for?

No, but it would be impossible for me to do that for myself, it would have to be very generalised

Do you issue instructions of "what if's", so in the event of an incident the SEC knows what to do, all part of managing risk.
At present, I take the phone call, quote and pass the client direct on to the SEC, so no I dont have any

On the little information you provide it would seem as though you could treat them as self employed. And as far as I am aware you invoice your client, then the "Self employed contractor" invoices you.

They do their own self assesment, with their main job working for their parents, 2nd at an animal sancturay and clients/potential clients are 3rd in line

Are all the SEC's named on yor PLI policy?
At present no, as my insurers said i dont need to

Sounds like you ave a good business running here, good luck with it.

sg

However I would like to be able to answer yes to all the above, when I do it properly.. I'm looking to rent a smallholding, in an attempt to train someone, or at least use my own animals to see if they actually have the experience they say they have. (I have yet to read the link, that will have to wait for the weekend)

stumbling goat

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1990

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 13 5:22 am Post subject:

One view might be that the less involvement you have in the relationship between sitter and client, the better?

You are then effectively an introduction agent.

If you go with the sitter and train them to show them how it is done and make sure they are okay (your post at 01.06 11.48pm) then you might be liable in the event of issue? In which case what the "training" consisted of, what you "showed" them would be relevant to protect yourself.

A job description or role need not be exhaustive nor overly prescriptive but again if someone asked you what the job description is/was you may feel happier producing some sort of guide rather than saying there isn't one.

I don't mean to sound all doom and gloom, but you do seem to have a little gem here and simple steps you can take to make sure that you are covered, your sitters have a clear idea of what is expected of them and your clients know how well organised and monitored or mentored your sitters are the better, IMHO.

It is always nice to be able to satisfactorily answer the "what if" without losing sleep.

Hope it works out for you.

sg

woodsprite

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 2943
Location: North Herefordshire

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 13 7:47 am Post subject:
Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info. I'll shut up now.

Pel

Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 2366
Location: Sennybridge

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 13 8:49 pm Post subject:

woodsprite wrote:

Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.

Where can i find one of these? They sound useful. I agree i would need to get advice from different places/organisations.

Thanks

earthyvirgo

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 7972
Location: creating prints in the loft, Gerlan

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 13 9:01 pm Post subject:

Before you go down the road of Employer, I'd say take a long, hard think if this is really what you want to do.

Yes, there are benefits (can't actually think of one right now! ..yes I can, being able to take on more work, which is why you're looking at it I think pel)) but the responsibility and overheads (time, stress etc) are, unless you're a very chilled out person, much greater than you might imagine.

EV

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 13 9:12 pm Post subject:

Pel wrote:

woodsprite wrote:

Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.

Where can i find one of these? They sound useful. I agree i would need to get advice from different places/organisations.

Thanks

Antur Teifi in Newcastle Emlyn,they also have an office in Lampeter they use,opposite J Williams supermarket/china shop.

But there are loads of them around,all over Wales,funded by the Assembly.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16030

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 13 8:20 am Post subject:
There may also be one run by your local authority. We used to have one here and it was very useful to us when we first started.

mark

Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 13 11:08 am Post subject:

First check what your "helper" will be happy with.

If you don't become their employer (handle their PAYE, NI contribs etc) then they have to be self employed and to do it themselves. Not everyone wants to do this!
As they also have no rights to maternity leave, sick pay from you most self employed people want a higher rate of pay to compensate for this.

While you save some time in employment records - you then also have to invest some time in making sure your contracts are right with your self-employed sub contractor.

One of the tests for someone being self employed is if they can turn down work.

If you require them to work when work comes in as part of their contract - it will be probably be judged they are to be treated as employed.

However if when work comes into you you offer it to them and they can say yes or no as to whether they take it, and they can negotiate hours and pay for individual jobs with you, then you are on a good wicket for having them as self employed..

One problem with having them as self employed etc is they are effectively offering the same freelance service as you are, so unless you are careful in your contracts with them and your clients they may poach your business from you or undercut your rates (which they are ready to do if you have encouraged them to set up as a self employed freelancer to work for you and they operate in the same area!).

mark
I think you need to think this through very carefully!

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 13 11:08 am Post subject:

woodsprite wrote:

Seems to me that you need advice from a small business organisation rather than very well meaning opinions from web friends who may or may not have the correct up to date info.
I'll shut up now.

You're obviously right, but that does, sort of, defeat the point of the Internet. Yes, you can get legal, financial and medical advice from grown ups and professionals with years of training, experience and the backing of professional bodies, but, really, is it as much fun?

earthyvirgo

Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 7972
Location: creating prints in the loft, Gerlan

Posted: Tue Jun 11, 13 11:15 am Post subject:

mark wrote:

Some v good advice about things to watch out for.

Agree with Nick below too, real experience from people who have done it is valuable, 'Business Advice' from agencies, which you might expect to be tip-top, can often only skim the surface.

If you can find a helpful person at your local Tax office, they can be invaluable.
EV

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