Wind v Solar

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Wind v Solar
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vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 15 9:15 pm Post subject:

Ty Gwyn wrote:

Not that anyone has debated his figure`s or calculations.

They're not particularly meaningful in the context he's provided them.

He talks in general terms e.g. "get some of the latest development solar panels which are currently state of the art and are so new that they won't even be on sale for about 12-18 months and will be very expensive" which means nothing.

He says nothing about load profiles and usage, charging efficiencies, storage utilisations, cost effectiveness, required inputs etc. His units of energy are incorrect, he should be quoting Watt.hours not amperage, and he make no references to suppliers, makes, models or anything particularly meaningful.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Tue Aug 18, 15 10:08 pm Post subject:

Considering he has converted his house/smallholding to be completely off grid,doing the work himself,
Considering he work`s for the solar company that has dealing`s with the supplier of these new panel`s,he`s hardly going to post the details before they come on the market,
I guess the guy know`s something about what he does,

Considering he posted this on a Mining forum,frequented by electricians,he must also be brave or daft,lol.

If you disagree with his calculations,you could always log into that forum and debate the issue`s with him.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 15 6:48 am Post subject:
The mistakes, inconsistency & bias are so huge I CBA to even start to debate it with someone that has already made their mind up.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Thu Aug 20, 15 7:43 am Post subject:
Do point out these mistakes,inconsistencies and bias`s, I`ll point them out to him,as i don`t often agree with him,lol

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 15 6:28 am Post subject:

One thing to consider with wind v solar is that wind power can probably be considered a mature technology. Although we have only been generating electricity with it for a relatively short time, we have been using windmills of various sorts for centuries. In the form it is being used to produce electricity, solar power is very new; I had a very early solar cell in the late 1960s produced by Bell Laboratories, and at that time something of a novelty.

A lot of work is being carried out on solar cells, and I think over the next 10-20 years we will see great improvements in them. There are several solar farms round here, and one advantage they have is that they are generally less intrusive at ground level than wind power. Aesthetics I know, but important if people are to accept them. On the down side they take up a lot more room than a windmill.

Interesting subject Ty Gwyn, but don't know enough about it to debate on anything other than acceptance by the public level, and to some extent suitability of sites.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 15 7:01 am Post subject:

the elephant in this equation is water,from cragside via the hoover dam to modern flow turbines moving water has proved that it has the reliability and sufficient harvestable energy to make development of a variety of systems a practical solution to the problem.

over a century and a half various rigs have been developed that can harvest useful energy from almost any example of moving water,perhaps it is under developed because it works .solar and wind seem to rely on tax breaks ,getting 15% of all offshore wind the royalties back to the royals which makes their promotion of and investments in offshore wind a rather good deal,government greenwashing etc etc .

it might not be sunny ,it will be night or it might be the wrong sort of wind but the tide will ebb and flow in a very predictable way and apart from 4 slack spots a day is a continuous energy source

ps the ones in strangford loch dont seem to mince all the fish either

Mutton

Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 1508

Posted: Fri Aug 21, 15 12:59 pm Post subject:

Not been mentioned so far

When we have a high pressure system in place, sometimes over the whole country, then it is sunny, with low, or no winds. This can happen in the middle of winter - lovely crisp sunny days - and in the UK the sun is a lot lower in winter than in summer. At that point solar PV is not performing nearly as well as it would in summer and the wind turbines are not turning at all. So standing a turbine and a solar panel in the same location - interesting but it depends when you chose to do it and the weather system at the time.

Go and look at the Renewable Energy Foundation website and their various studies. They base their work on real time outputs from working commercial solar and wind power.

They have data on most renewables - including slurry and other bio ones.

Another interesting one to google is Eigg Electric - the island of Eigg has its own power generation and distribution network with solar, wind and hydropower. Also discusses the limitations on the usages (which seem pretty reasonable to me).

My personal view is that

1. We need to work to reduce world population (see folks like Population Matters)
2. We need to work to reduce individual consumption (whatever the source of the electricity).

It will have a much bigger effect than moving more and more generation to renewable sources plus it makes powering the country by a proportion of renewable more feasible as we just don't need as much.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 15 6:09 am Post subject:

Dpack, you are right about the tidal power, or other hydro schemes. There are still some parts of the country that can't use either though; where there are few rivers, no sea, and no suitable sites for dams, are not going to generate much for instance.

One reason that fossil fuels have been used for some time to generate electricity is that they can be regulated as needed. So far, apart from hydro, which is sometimes used in conjunction with back pumping schemes, none of the renewable sources are capable of regulation on an as needed basis rather than an as generated basis. Hopefully power storage systems of various kinds will eventually be capable of allowing this to happen.

Mutton

Joined: 09 May 2009
Posts: 1508

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 15 11:09 am Post subject:
This seems an appropriate place to link to this https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/ Why renewable energy won't work. What do you all think?

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 15 11:57 am Post subject:

Quote:

renewables will never permit the human race to cut CO2 emissions to the levels demanded by climate activists.

How are we defining "activists"?
In my book, they tend to be the extremists, so are perhaps calling for unreasonable cuts?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46207
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Aug 22, 15 12:24 pm Post subject:

the most active activists are the folk who make billions a day from extracting,processing and trading fossil fuels to burn.

i spose the immans that have recently suggested fossil fuel is at odds with "stewardship"are activists as are the various govs that signed up to kyoto(although they have mostly failed to comply or have gone for nukes which are another hot kettle of slightly dubious fish)

anyway back to the thread i recon both wind and solar have a small place in the big picture and can be a good option for micro scale schemes although massive desert based solar arrays could be a sensible move but until large scale energy storage is sorted owt that only works part time is never going to be more than a detail

for expedition power a portable solar/wind combo with some good batteries is probably a clever rig.

Falstaff

Joined: 27 May 2009
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 2:06 am Post subject:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/ The "seven day" zealots will agree with the "con sensus"

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 8:27 am Post subject:

We need to look at a range of ways of producing the power we need. Some of them may turn out to be dead ends, but others may be worth pursuing. Water power, in spite of my previous post, is definitely one of those. It won't produce enough power for all our needs, but it will add a steady production as a base line.

Many years ago, when solar power production was in it's infancy, it was calculated that there was enough sunlight falling on Egypt to give more than enough power for the whole world. Again, even if we could put vast solar arrays in desert areas, it wouldn't be the sole answer, but arrays in suitable places will provide some power. If the array produces more power over its lifetime than is used in its production, it is a positive input, especially if the materials can be recycled.

At this time all we can do is chip away at the use of fossil fuel as actively as we can. It should have started a long time ago; we were interested in this when we were first married over 40 years ago, and not enough has been going on fast enough in the meantime to give us the full ability to stop using fossil fuels for energy.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 15 5:30 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

We need to look at a range of ways of producing the power we need...

Producing, storing and using.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 15 6:13 am Post subject:
True Hairyloon.

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