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Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sat May 21, 16 12:27 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sat May 21, 16 12:57 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.

But we can.
All food sold is labelled with country of origin.
If people don't care that's not the fault of the EU.
If consumers stop buying it they will stop sending it.
It's called freedom of choice.

& the UK isn't Mr Squeaky clean when it comes to applying some EU rules.
Human rights & the environment the main ones.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sat May 21, 16 2:43 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU.

No, but the fact that we can't refuse the stuff coming into (or going out of) our country certainly is.

Usually I'd be right behind you on that one (consumer choice) but the issues we're seeing at the moment in the dairy trade (and other agricultural commodities) isn't the physical movement of produce causing the price to go down. To a degree it is caused by too much production in the UK but mostly the price is dictated by the fact that there is a much bigger over supply in Europe. UK dairy farmers could cut back to attempt to raise the price but the supply would be filled by countries such as Ireland and Poland who are both increasing.

The UK isn't perfect, of course not, but if we're talking about general trends, we do tend to be early adopters of advances. I'm all for many of the protections we have, but the way the EU works can be, as Mistress Rose says, one size fits noone.

Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Sat May 21, 16 9:35 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU. The main problem we have in that case is that people 'want' high welfare standards, but aren't willing to pay for them. The fact the welfare standards are there, and supposed to be applied across the EU if the relavant point.

Yes, we are suffering from dumping by China, but it was our govenment that apparantly prevented the EU from applying tarrifs.

The banning of pigs in crates in the UK was 1999,it was not due to start in Europe till 2005,and some countries 10 yrs later had still not applied,

On the steel tariffs I agree,Osbourne and his rail buying spree to China for HS2 could not be faultered by slapping tariffs on Chinese steel,god forbid,but we also get large tonnages of European steel imported into the UK.

EU carbon emissions directives,it seems to be,Do as I say,Not as I do,
Well in Germany`s case anyway.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15991

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 5:27 am Post subject:

The Portugese renewable run of several days is really good. Perhaps a bit more encouragement in the UK rather than going for the fracking option?

I don't know what the answer is with milk Rob. I think most people buy British milk as liquid milk, but the others sneak into everything else. I suspect they would even if we left the EU.

Ty Gwyn, we were probably ahead in the pig crate thing because that is what the British population said they wanted-then continued to by pork and bacon from countries that still use crates because it is cheaper.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 7:46 am Post subject:
The answer, with both pork & milk, is to put equal standards on imports as home produced goods. This is not guaranteed by leaving the EU but the opposite is guaranteed by staying in. Many of the comments in favour of the EU are based upon our current government, a short sighted view for a long term decision.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 8:45 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU...

I think it is... unless you mean that we have misinterpreted the rules to make them more strict.
Otherwise, who's fault is it if an organisation does not enforce its rules if not the organisation?

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 10:09 am Post subject:

Hairyloon wrote:

Mistress Rose wrote:

The fact some EU countries don't apply the rules as strictly as the UK is not the fault of the EU...

I think it is... unless you mean that we have misinterpreted the rules to make them more strict.
Otherwise, who's fault is it if an organisation does not enforce its rules if not the organisation?

I took it to mean that we (UK) should lower our standards to match those in the EU. And, of course, where we are lowest it is down to other countries to lower their standards. Not an approach I agree with.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 5:09 pm Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

The answer, with both pork & milk, is to put equal standards on imports as home produced goods. This is not guaranteed by leaving the EU but the opposite is guaranteed by staying in. Many of the comments in favour of the EU are based upon our current government, a short sighted view for a long term decision.

What I fear for the food sector if we leave is the farther we move from the EU the nearer we move to the USA.
USA food standards are abysmal compared to the EU. Also their levels of industrialisation will mean competition will be harder on the British meat producers.
Fresh milk would probably be safe but beef & pork are very big business over there.
TTIP if it's allowed will cripple mainstream farms & food standards in the shops will plummet IMHO.
& there's more resistance to TTIP in the EU than there is here in the UK.
Both camps, in & out seem to want it.
But as I said earlier "this has nothing to do with a coal free Britain."

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Sun May 22, 16 9:43 pm Post subject:
Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Mon May 23, 16 6:54 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

Most of the resistance to TTIP is coming from the Socialist & Green groups within the EU parliament.
Thankfully the EU MEPs are elected proportionally.
We have a first past the post system that means we have Tory MPs sitting that only received a few thousand votes, & one Green MP when the party received over a million votes nationwide.
The UK electoral system isn't designed to represent the electorate but to maintain the status quo.
Keeping the power in the hands of wealthy landowners & big business.
UK democracy is a myth, regardless how you vote.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15991

Posted: Mon May 23, 16 6:54 am Post subject:

You are right Tavascarow, this has nothing to do directly with a coal free Britain, but does indirectly.

HL, I mean that the UK tends to embellish the standards, although some countries do let people take a long time to implement new legislation.

Rob, to some extent I think we have to consider the current government. If it were green, forward thinking as far as the environment, animal welfare, human rights and fairness for all were concerned, I think fewer of us would see the EU as a safeguard against government excesses. Yes, we have to look at the long term, but having these things brought into current focus makes us look at relationships between the British people, the British government and the EU in a different light.

In the case of renewable energy, and hence a coal, or gas free Britain, this govenment is trying to go for the fossil fuel option.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Mon May 23, 16 7:04 am Post subject:

Rob R wrote:

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Mon May 23, 16 7:25 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?

We are, but we do not know how much of how we are living is related to being in.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon May 23, 16 8:13 am Post subject:

Nick wrote:

Rob R wrote:

Which just goes to show that the whole of the EU debate is rooted in gut feelings, not evidence. None of us really know the effect of in or out. But I'm predicting a narrow 'in' win on June 23rd.

You know we're living the reality of the in right now?

Yep, and it's shit. But for most it's pretty good, hence my prediction.

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