tesla get a bit nearer to mass scale clean energy.

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tesla get a bit nearer to mass scale clean energy.
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Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 17 8:05 am Post subject:
They both look like good ideas. Will follow how they are getting on.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 17 12:11 pm Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Quote:

store energy and meet spikes in demand � like on hot summer afternoons when buildings start to crank up the air conditioning

Why that face?
Frustration that you don't live somewhere with hot summer afternoons?
Frustration that too many people rely on air conditioning?

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 17 3:55 pm Post subject:

Slim wrote:

Treacodactyl wrote:

Quote:

store energy and meet spikes in demand � like on hot summer afternoons when buildings start to crank up the air conditioning

Why that face?
Frustration that you don't live somewhere with hot summer afternoons?
Frustration that too many people rely on air conditioning?

Almost all UK buildings are now built with windows that cannot be opened, so air conditioning is now standard. Not to cool, or heat, necessarily, but just for circulation. Pretty sure opening windows would be a good thing.

GrahamH

Joined: 23 May 2015
Posts: 523

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 17 11:39 pm Post subject:

Not new technology. Again Telsa has good PR but not innovation.

Both systems (Dpack & Onemanbands posts) provide energy for 'spikes'. However, in the Telsa system old type batteries are used (energy to manufacture and transport), housed in purpose built enclosures (energy and resources to produce and build) which need to be kept cool by A/C units. Batteries are charged and kept charged to replace the drainage by mains electricity.

Lots of energy and resources used/wasted to provide coverage for spikes which may or may not happen.
A better solution for spikes caused by A/C usage in hot spells (Telsa's reason..see Dpack link) would be to utilise an absorption chiller A/C system which uses heat rather than electricity for it's main power source. (Telsa site is a battery manufacturing plant situated in a hot climate....lots of waste heat)

Better to look at the gains made in ways of hydrogen storage in metals and glass for progress in energy efficiency.

For a scientific explanation...https://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/metal-hydride-storage-materials

Simply...hydrogen atoms stored between the molecules of metal would provide a safe and clean solid fuel cell, .....go to a petrol station and insert a new cell....size of about a vacuum flask could power a vehicle for over 1,000 miles. Burn discharge pure water. (What this would do for rising sea levels I have no idea but could be fun to try to predict.) A Danish University has developed a 'salt tablet' along similar principles which can store and release hydrogen.
The progress in this area of research and development along with solid battery technology is promising.
.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 7:55 am Post subject:
This is being worked on by various people including tesla and BMW at a place in Sheffield. It's on Letsby Avenue, conveniently by the hq of South Yorkshire Constabulary. And I'm not even joking.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 8:23 am Post subject:

I agree about opening windows being better than air conditioning Nick. Another problem with air conditioning is that it is rather good at spreading things like colds and flu though office buildings. You can often trace the route of the air in large complexes by when people go off sick.

At present I think we are working our way through the best ways to store solar and wind produced energy, so there are several lines of enquiry. Perhaps one will come out as best, and perhaps several routes will always be available. We had a similar situation when CFCs were on the point of being banned for defluxing and degreasing in the electronics industry about 20 years ago. Lots of different things were tried, but sadly I dropped out at that time, so have no idea what happened.

That paper is very complex Graham; far deeper than I would expect for a government website. I understood the jist of it but either it wasn't very well written, or I have forgotten more of that than I thought.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46209
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 12:04 pm Post subject:
linky re china who are expanding proven tech as well as working on r and d.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 12:19 pm Post subject:

GrahamH wrote:

Simply...hydrogen atoms stored between the molecules of metal would provide a safe and clean solid fuel cell, .....go to a petrol station and insert a new cell....size of about a vacuum flask could power a vehicle for over 1,000 miles. Burn discharge pure water. (What this would do for rising sea levels I have no idea but could be fun to try to predict.) A Danish University has developed a 'salt tablet' along similar principles which can store and release hydrogen.
The progress in this area of research and development along with solid battery technology is promising.
.

Isn't the ideal situation where hydrogen is being split out of water via electrolysis (powered by a renewable source, e.g., excess solar)? Therefore the water formed by combustion should zero out on a global scale.

I think the change to water cycle only comes about if you're using a petroleum product as your hydrogen source. (currently it's mostly from natural gas, isn't it?)

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 12:23 pm Post subject:

I think the newsworthy bit of the original post isn't the battery technology being used, just that it's being used at all on that scale.

Looks like there are lots of promising avenues of work towards better energy storage.

The one I heard about most recently sounds promising: https://scienceblog.com/492018/new-long-lasting-flow-battery-run-decade-minimum-upkeep/

Much less space-efficient, but it's hard to argue with reduced costs!

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46209
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 17 2:21 pm Post subject:
nice battery tech. big isn�t a problem in a lot of situations and "safe", long life, water based batteries do avoid a lot of the issues with current tech options . cheaper than fossil looks achievable even with existing tech.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 17 7:56 am Post subject:
That battery looks very interesting Slim. It sounds amazingly like a super Leyden jar though, so some things don't change much.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 17 1:17 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

That battery looks very interesting Slim. It sounds amazingly like a super Leyden jar though, so some things don't change much.

Everything old is new again. Things just get tweaked along the way

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28233
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 17 9:01 am Post subject:

A question for me has always been why does clean HAVE to be cheaper?

What is cheaper anyway?

Can the cost of Nuclear clean up or its risks really be quantified?
What is the real cost of pollution?

https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/annual/showtext.php?t=ptb0810

Suggests that the cost of electricity has stayed pretty stable for decades, but has been 20% more expensive at times than current figures.

Whilst again pointing out my skepticism on such calculations, it does not suggest to me that if clean energy was 20% more expensive that it would be a terrible thing.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 17 12:32 pm Post subject:
Careful, that's the kind of thinking leads to "Why would it be so bad to pay a couple extra dollars per American so that everyone had basic healthcare" and "Why would it be so bad for American high school students to feel like they could go to a college without mortgaging their future?" (I realize these arguments are more prevalent/pertinent in America....)

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15966

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 17 8:37 am Post subject:

Not completely Slim. The healthcare issue is backwards if you like; we currently have free healthcare (though not dentistry or glasses), and rarely now podiatry. The government, by creeping privatisation, seems keen to make us pay. As far as further education, after 18, we now have to pay for it here, although it used to be free.

Food and energy don't have to always be cheaper Jema, but you have to calculate the result if they are more expensive. For instance, you can cook cheap cuts of meat if you have cheaper power, but if you have to count how long you can afford to use the cooker, you might have to do without the meat as well.

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