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dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 21 9:56 am Post subject:

ammonia seems a bad idea on many grounds

if storage from 0 carbon sources is prioritized over production for base load and peak demands nukes, coal etc are not required

as for transport, burning oil and before that coal is "cheap"

building and using sail that can do the same job is very expensive

without numbers etc i do not know if a big cargo boat could be electrified, big sail boats are about a million quid per foot

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 21 12:00 pm Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

Why ammonia? It is going to produce oxides of nitrogen, and then those will be the next pollutant. If they have to go that way, hydrogen, possibly made and used on board, or partial sail power.

If you use modified low-NOx burners the NOx emissions aren't significantly higher than from any other combustion (don't forget that the air used in pretty much every form of internal combustion engine is predominantly nitrogen). Of all the reasons not to use ammonia, a slight increase in NOx emissions isn't near the top of my list, especially given it is zero carbon if from a sustainable source.

As to the "why ammonia" question, safety issues aside it is looking like a reasonable way of storing and deploying hydrogen as a fuel - at least from a number-of-hydrogen-molecules-per-unit-volume viewpoint.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 21 7:39 am Post subject:
As you say, nitrogen is all around us in the air, and any burning will produce oxides. Large engines are something that needs to be addressed as at present I understand the only electric tractors are about the size of an 'alpine' tractor, or next size up from a quad bike in laymans terms. Any thoughts on those or lorry engines?

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 21 8:50 am Post subject:

Mistress Rose wrote:

As you say, nitrogen is all around us in the air, and any burning will produce oxides. Large engines are something that needs to be addressed as at present I understand the only electric tractors are about the size of an 'alpine' tractor, or next size up from a quad bike in laymans terms. Any thoughts on those or lorry engines?

There are a few small companies that are converting old vehicles (buses, bin lorries, etc.) to electric motor-driven (see here). It's a developing sector, so prices are currently very high, but I'd imagine it will more affordable to get an old oil-burner converted within a short number of years. Ideally, it won't be long before you can take your tractor in and get it electrified for less than the price of buying a new one.

I guess space for battery storage might be more of an issue for a tractor than for a bus or a truck, but I'd assume that if you have the facility to plug it in during breaks and leave it on charge overnight it should manage most of a day's tasks without running out of juice. Might struggle for a full day in a field with PTO running at high load, I'd imagine, but storage capacities and charge times are improving all the time, so there is hope.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 21 12:10 pm Post subject:

i have worked with hydrogen, there are assorted issues with pressurized gas.
it can slither between the atoms and crystals of many metals to escape or to change their properties in ways that may not be beneficial, it has other dark skills

a chemical hold and release and hold again is plausible to make a "hydrogen battery", but this sort of compounds are horrible to work with and contain

have a look at the fun nasa et al have had with hydrogen.

for mobile or small size i have serious reservations re H, plant scale can be a bit iffy, getting the recipe correct needs bottle

etc

ps i considered getting a h2 o2 electrolysis torch(with mek afterburner capacity) for very hot tiny metal
no, i have played with all three and have other means to do very hot

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15998

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 21 8:03 am Post subject:

I agree it will come. I can't see tractors being viable until the storage of whatever will give a full day working using heavy machinery. Not sure how we would manage ours, as in the middle of a wood is a tricky place for power. Currently we use partially solar power, and hope to expand this, but a deciduous wood in summer isn't the best place for solar. Wind power similarly as the trees make it unstable. No doubt we will find a way as time goes on. All but one of our tractors count as 'classic' anyway, as we can't afford new ones.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 21 11:56 am Post subject:
An electric tractor would make perfect sense for us, but it'll be a few years till there's an 85-100hp orchard tractor available, and it'll be way outside our budget. I reckon fruit farms will be early adopters.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 21 12:23 pm Post subject:
there should be a middle ground between human+donkey or massive expensive machine unfortunately at the mo it eats diesel

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 21 4:07 pm Post subject:
I'm sure there will be some interesting smaller scale electric machines popping up on Ali baba before too long

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 21 7:25 pm Post subject:
make a leccy one that can do those tasks etc agile and half a company of horses+ all day+ easy to use for pull or power a potentially nice tangent for the leccy car folk

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 21 2:45 pm Post subject:
Might not be a tangent - rather an established product line. I'm sure it won't be long before the massive agricultural conglomerates are rushing to show their green credentials (to avoid having to address issues such as sprawling monoculture, soil erosion, run off into rivers, methane from cows, etc.), so electrifying their machine fleets will probably already be on their minds.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 21 3:31 pm Post subject:

For sure Shane, but part of the solution to feeding the planet is going to be industrial (lab) production of meat, and vertical farming (basically a warehouse stacked floor to ceiling with trays of plants under LED lamps, hydroponically grown).

I reckon the advances in food tech in the next 20 years will be as great as all those since Homo Sapiens emerged as a species. I wonder if your starter culture is a kosher cow whether the "beef" produced from it will be kosher too. One of the more trivial ethical issues that will have to be dealt with in the coming decades.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 21 6:29 pm Post subject:
my soyalent green factory will sort the protein needs get clever and share seems a decent and better basis for a survival plan

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45676
Location: Essex

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 21 10:24 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

get clever and share seems a decent and better basis for a survival plan

Unfortunately not enough of us agree

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46247
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 21 10:40 pm Post subject:
so far tis worth a try

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