Long range EVs

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Long range EVs
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jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28248
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 23 7:22 am Post subject:

We drove about 5 hours back from deepest Wales yesterday and when looking at long trips lately I always think how would this work in an EV? This was typical after two and a half hours people wanted loos and a bite to eat, so pulled into services where there are chargers and it was about a 25 minute break which would have boosted the EV to more than enough range. As it was I was keeping an eye on petrol levels, whatever you drive it has a range! In some long range EVs no charging would have been needed. That's another thing about EVs, arrive home with 15 miles of gas and I'm stuck with a 30 minute round trip to Costco, arrive home with 15 miles of charge and in a hour or so the car would be back up to "emergency" levels with zero effort. As it is I will be making the Costco trip in the next few days and so the journey really would have been more convenient by EV.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16093

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 23 8:29 am Post subject:

It does depend on the charging rate and the length of time you want to spend at the services. For someone doing a leisure run, then having a half hour break, with a reasonably fast charging car, half an hour after a couple of hours is no problem. If you are on business and have to be somewhere in a reasonable time then you would either not want to stop or minimise the time stopped. As far as refuelling, we try to fit it in with a run to do something else like shopping or deliveries. We do have a petrol station about 2 miles down the road, but the preferred one at present (price) is about 5 miles but can be fitted into shopping or delivery. Not always possible, but saves time and fuel.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 23 10:49 am Post subject:

95 minutes was/is considered the ideal length of a film, probably about right for comfort breaks if you are driving properly.

a decent battery, clever control gear and a fast charging point could make that easy

3hrs and a half hour break, ditto

most folk need a break after 100 to 200 miles, that is the sort of charge boost required if you swap drivers there is no bingo or range issue

most car journeys are low mileage per day and so long as there is a suitable plug they are parked long enough to charge up

if the taxi folk etc

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45698
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 23 10:02 am Post subject:
This piece published only 18 hours ago has already slipped off the front page of the BBC website: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67242386 Matthew Perrys death is of course much more important

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 23 3:15 pm Post subject:

don't look now, don't even look close, or up or long
happen we are a little more informed than many, i am sure that is less comfortable than ignorance. to be fair a population being emoted about a dead celeb is easier to manage than one being emoted about an existential threat to the global geo/ecosystem which we depend upon for all of our needs

the active opposition to zero fossil from the fossil bit of the machine has been relentless and insidiously effective by assorted means, most governments are not even pocket change if bought one at a time, media, buy the media or those who work for it
fossil can and often does start and end wars to get the soil with the oil, throwing shiny distractions at the consumers so they don't look up is a fairly minor charge on the list

========================================

COP28, greenwashing by gaslight with nice canapés, excellent"networking"potential and state-of-the-art air con, i cannot make a politer comment

how are they pitching it?

misty07

Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 2223
Location: swindon wiltshire

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 23 10:23 am Post subject:

Obviously I’ve come into this 54 pages in but here’s my knowledge. Doing vehicle recovery I’ve dealt with EV. So on this side and this side alone these vehicles I believe ain’t good. This is going by statistics. Now there is 3 things to look at . Building recovery and dismantling. There is currently training for building and dismantling but there is in fact no training in recovery of EV.Now this being said the reason behind this is simply the fact of not enough accidents/fatalities with them. So the governing body is AA have no official training on safe recovery and handling of Ev. Now on my phone I have an app to be able to shut down all EV . It’s as simple as a connection between 2 wires to be broken through certain connections in place on the system. So let’s talk the basic protocol for breakdowns and rtc’s. Tesla they run out of charge your tasked to collect it take to dealership or home address. You arrive on scene lights going yo get out check the problem it’s dead it needs recovery. You call tesla inform them of situation . You need to tell the customer you need to break a part to be able to recover said vehicle so basically you need to break the customers car with there permission for you to do your job. This item is replaced free of charge by Tesla due to their mishap. Now for a simple rtc’s minor damage so that’s not as bad. Now if damaged say it’s a wrap around a tree. You need to make sure the vehicle is safe. First job call fire brigade to make safe to do this you need to disconnect the power. By these connections located certain places in multiple places depending where damage is. If we get on scene an no fire crew you don’t touch the car. So if you crash an EV don’t get out the car simple as this. The reason being you don’t know if the impact involved has severed a cable which is now touching the chassis or body. You step out the car your brown bread. 5k volts as you step out holding the door as you touch the ground you are now the earthing point. And you die. No ifs no buts. Your dead. The dealers won’t tell you this though. So once we recover said EV we take it to impound we park it middle of the yard away from any other vehicle. Reason being it can take 3weeks to catch fire. Then once caught fire it will basically burn for a week solid. Nothing will put it out. It’s a electrical fire. The right way and only way is now they’re bringing in certain criteria’s to deal with the potentials. One thing you need is basically a handling set up in place by forklift. You lift it into place and you put said casualty EV into a tank of water. Basically a 20ft container set into the ground full of water. Now they need to sit in the tank for 3weeks so if anything happens it will contain the fire. There are still teething problems now the uk when EV came here we needed to build 12 power stations to be able to handle the power consumption needed. So apart from the carbon footprint advertised as zero. Is in fact a lie the mines needed to fulfill the orders is immense going from the land contamination to the deaths to the shipping of products and the sources needed to make these EV. Now with all this it adds up the costs these EV cost more than the standard fossil fuel cars. They built EV back in the late 18 early 1900s We had the likes of electric vehicles way back when to the most recent being milk floats. They found they didn’t have the resources in place Bk then and now the market is flooded and the problems are still there. Until the costs come down and products are more recyclable then I believe I may be wrong but the problems still exist. I was picking up the scrap from bmw when they were testing with prototypes from South Africa etc the cost of a basic mini was say £20k then this is compared to the cost of the electric mini starting price of £75k this obviously not realistic costs but just a show of costings.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 23 3:00 pm Post subject:

having experienced being in a burning petrol vehicle i will take my chances with a bit of voltage on the body shell
i have seen someone exit a "live"vehicle with no harm, jump works

the wreckage catching fire later is a problem for the RV crews etc, the newer battery tech is a lot more stable, being cautious is always a good idea with any sort of wreckage, at least with liquid fuel it is either on fire before recovery arrives or relatively easily made safe

re "old" battery tech, i was an early adopter of assorted rechargeable batteries, never had the hint of overheating or fire, a few did not last well

liquids with a low flash point and high vapour pressure have often been "difficult and surprising" when they were supposed to be a controlled energy source of some type

as you mention there is not much experience or data about your concerns, so far, and the more modern EVs are cheaper and the lessons of the past have been added to the better ways of making them

check out the big EV truck tractor units etc, the latest generation look ideal for heavy hauling, the swappable batteries seem ace and that might also mitigate quite a few bent vehicle recovery worries if separating the battery from the moving bits is easy

as for disconnect on impact, it should not be hard to use airbag tech to disconnect the battery from the wires if there is a high impact force, that covers the shock risk

reducing the risk of fire from a ruptured battery is both mechanical and chemical
afaik both of those have been taken into account with the most recent vehicles, although the airbag disconnect might be a new idea that needs an instant patent

misty07

Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 2223
Location: swindon wiltshire

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 23 4:37 pm Post subject:

Yes 100% an explosive system would be a way forward I’m sure there is systems in place in the world already where a simple airbag sytem upon impact would detonate a small charge like the airbags to sever the wire instead of fire or recovery crews to do. If they do this I can see a very good future with them. With trucks turning to electric this adds a few factors. In increases weight so less product moved = more trucks on the road= basic licences need to be upped. Ie a 7.5t rental truck will have 2 factors 1 less payload 2 bigger licence needed. Now the initial setup cost is immense I think I heard recently to have 1 merc tractor unit with a 500 mile radius means 100k initial setup and this truck needs to be back at base to recharge the new mer I think can go from 30% to 80% in 3hrs or swap batteries over meaning it will involve 2 lorries as one comes back to base the other goes out to save time and money but this adds to the cost that’s another £30-£50k for another driver plus another truck. now iirc in Eu they doing what the trains do they hit a town and when in town a rail goes up hits power lines gains charge.how effective will this be I’m unsure as that’s beyond me. But there is ways and means around every thing. I don’t think the teething problems will be adjusted in my life time unfortunately but they will get it one day

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 16093

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 23 7:54 am Post subject:

I understand all your concerns Misty, and certainly agree with some of them. Recovery must be pretty difficult anyway under some circumstances, and anything that makes it worse isn't good.

Production and distribution of electricity is something that needs to be addressed before too many more EVs are sold. This is going to have to be a function of central government as relying upon 'market forces' for something this big isn't going to work.

The current battery technology does rely upon rare earths and is not really sustainable in its current form, and as you say, the production is not good. However new battery technologies are coming in that should address this. As for the other mining/shipping/costs involved, most of them are also involved in producing an ICE car. I also think that ideas such as removable batteries will probably come in, or other way of fast charging.

I think that the problem of fire will probably be addressed too. This was certainly a serious problem in the early days of ICE cars when people had to store petrol in often wooden garages next to the car, and sometimes with the car itself. Not quite sure how it will be addressed, but could be something like a special foam that will cling to the battery and suppress any fire that could start.

The main drawback with the old milk floats was that they were only suitable for shorter rounds, like in towns or quite close to the dairy. They would have been powered by a lead/ acid battery. I think the reason they fell out of favour was the slow speed and short range.

EVs are almost certain to take over from ICE, but we are still in the early days and at present things aren't good from several points of view. As things progress, as with the early days of ICE cars, I think they will improve, and quite quickly too.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 23 2:15 pm Post subject:

the basics of an instant disconnect could be as simple as a commando type connector with the bangy gassy bit between the car plug side and the battery socket side, tidy waterproof and tested tech for a new use

air bag type control, job done and not expensive

the stuff on ejector seats is a bit more complex, but that is a collection of easy bits to disconnect everything in a hurry, disconnect a battery is simple

the batteries have improved a lot among the respectable manufacturers and will improve rapidly, most who put batteries in cars try to use safe ones, cheap hair curlers or a cheap E bike is at your own risk and if necessary apply normal firefighting procedures

when the car park at the airport caught fire recently, the fossil shill voices were keen to suggest "electric witches done it" before the flames were out
it was a middle-aged fossil Range Rover ( and perhaps an arsonist, i have no idea if he was charged or not so far etc) which was primary ignition point

ps if in dought, dry powder extinguishers are pretty effective and unlike to make matters worse whatever is burning
based on a couple of weeks of training when i was a chemist using the right stuff matters
only done it once for real, chose the right extinguisher, CO2, sorted , it was lucky i had a choice and knew which to grab
i have a 1 kg dry powder ABC, 3 feet away beside the kitchen door in case i forget the dog's burgers while i type this

i bought 6 of various types for the farm, hopefully none will ever be needed, they are there if they are

at work when i was doing chem or eng as a job, having them about was some small comfort when playing with daft stuff

better to have them available than not, hence my domestic one in case my pan or phone battery gets frisky

most times run is the best option, even if it is even a bit out of your comfort zone early effective intervention can avoid the need to run, best to run if there is any dought in your mind as to" it will be safe in a mo"

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 23 2:45 pm Post subject:

re vehicles and fire, petrol (etc*) ones intended for bent survivability if daftness goes wrong are fitted with auto fire extinguishers

add nitro methane or nitrous oxide, or both, and they are as much a comfort as a lucky rabbit's foot although a few times they have let folk walk away

much as i subscribe to the idea that vehicles should have spikes inside and bubble wrap outside to focus minds, making them safer both sides of the door makes sense

a simple disconnect would be no different to a lead boiler plug in case of mishaps, sensible both sides of the door

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45698
Location: Essex

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 23 5:15 pm Post subject:
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/news/grant-puts-electric-start-up-on-runway-towards-net-zero-aviation

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46345
Location: yes

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 23 6:34 pm Post subject:
it took a few tries to get ice flight fairly reliable and practical tis good they are able to give it a try for leccy, it may be a while before it works properly

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28248
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 23 7:45 am Post subject:

I think regional flight will be a revolutionary big win for batteries.
With batteries everything is a tipping point.
Once they have the energy density to actually do something, they are automatically the better way to do it.
I think we will see a massive expansion in regional airports.
The cost per passenger mile will fall at a guess to 25% of what it is now and plane travel will become much more like train travel.
Probably actually there will be two planes, checked in luggage in a drone, humans with a pilot.

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45698
Location: Essex

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 23 4:12 pm Post subject:
As predicted there's unlikely to be a UK use for the coal produced by the Cumbria mine: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/07/fresh-calls-to-scrap-cumbrian-coalmine-amid-steel-industrys-green-push

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