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Ty Gwyn

Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 4613
Location: Lampeter

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 23 11:29 am Post subject:

I`m an open minded person and tend to chew things up in my mind before making decisions,but this Government push for everything Electric is just to much for this old fashioned mind to swallow.

A number of years back when i had the survey a different scheme to this ECO4 ,one could only have the solar panels if the EPC rating on the house was higher hence the 75mm outside cladding,when i pointed out the soffit issue i was being persuaded to go for an air source heat pump,when i asked how much electricity it would take to run the pump i was told 1k a year.i told him i did`nt use half of that with 5 big deep freezes for meat.

A farmer near me had this ECO4 scheme,he`s taking out the air source pump as his electric bill was enormous and going back to oil and his wood burners,i need to go visit him one day to see what exactly they done on this scheme.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 23 12:20 pm Post subject:

There are some separate but interacting issues. From a climate perspective, electrification of as much as possible is critical to minimizing future society costs. (A stitch in time saves nine....)
Would have been much cheaper overall to have made these decarbonization pushes decades ago, but it's only now that we can easily see the real world consequences of greenhouse gases from the '90s. So efforts now may help for the climate in a couple decades, unless we reach enough assorted thresholds for some big rapid consequences (more mass migrations, dwarfing what the world already sees, more extreme weather, eating up resources that could be better used, dinging the global economy, etc)
So, very much a "the best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago, the second best time is now" situation.
So that means we need more people using more electricity.
Building sciences have been in a constant state of evolution, and focus on one approach has often led to new learnings, but also been impacted by changing economic realities, which is why thoughts of insulation, air sealing, appropriate technologies and appliances, etc, keep evolving.

Thermal solar hot water panels used to make some sense. Now they don't. It makes more sense to use the same roof space and upfront investment to just add more solar electric, especially if combining with a heat pump water heater. A solar thermal setup could add to that and reduce electricity usage, but the ROI often wouldn't pencil out now, and then you have issues of plumbing running through roots, etc.....

There was an interesting push towards massive insulation so that almost no energy was needed to hear a building. But folks have since penciled out the ROI and realized it may be better to just get very well insulated, and spend the same upfront cost on solar and a heat pump, etc.

Insulation and air sealing understandings and approaches have had to keep changing. A new building may be well served by one approach that would not work well for an old building. Whether to put insulation on the inside or outside depends mostly on air sealing, and air exchange, and where you anticipate water vapor to condensate.

I think the problem mostly comes from the very human habit of finding a tool that works very well for one problem and attempting to apply it to to many other problems. A bit of that is fantastic experimenting that teaches us new things, but too much leads to problems when individual circumstances are not well considered.

Insulation, air sealing, and energy efficient/decarbonized heading should all be considered holistically, with the first two being prioritized. The cheapest energy is still the energy not needed. Once the heating demand of a building is lowered, the energy needing purchased is much lower.

But electricity costs are a separate but intertwined issue. I don't understand the UK electricity pricing issues, but even if I did, energy markets will continue to evolve and change. I can only speak to my circumstance, and we've aimed to take control over our costs. We no longer have to worry about how expensive propane will or will not be next winter. The loan repayments we make on our pv solar setup are less than we would be paying for the equivalent electricity, but we benefit from net metering, having purchased when costs were lower and interest rates were lower, ymmv. We're needing new cars, and we're going to keep driving ours until we can affordably get new electric ones. We expect to be able to get them for about the same cost as new gas powered cars, but I'm pretty frugal and will be working hard to find the best deals and incentives and expect I can probably get us vehicles for much less than many folks spend for typical gas cars (but that's probably true of any vehicles I try to buy). Anyhow, when the time comes, we'll either invest in more solar generating potential, out just plan to purchase from the grid. Either way, I will know what my cost per energy unit will be for at least the coming year, if not the coming decades (depending on if we invest in more PV or not), leave the house with a "full tank" every time and not have to worry what the cost at the fuel pump is. That's gotta be worth something to anyone, regardless of how they feel about decarbonization.

If we do things right, and as battery technologies improve, we may get to the point where we can use EVs as whole house batteries in combination with our solar, and completely detach from the grid, and have no utility bills other than internet service.

Folks who don't know to think about appliance lifespans, maintenance and replacement costs, etc, may still get caught off guard, but that's true of any energy sources.....

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 23 4:44 pm Post subject:

Very interesting Slim. We are hoping for a guided tour of next doors house when it is complete as they have gone for high insulation of an existing house, solar power and a heat pump. They have the sense to have a wood fire as well just in case.

We have gone over to cooking more using a microwave and an air fryer rather than the gas cooker. I still use that for baking and a few other things, but roasts, grilling and odd jobs get done with electricity. A combination of usage, government schemes and moaning at the gas company has reduced our bill from over £250 per month to just over £60 per month. I told them we were paying too much!!!!!

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 23 6:10 pm Post subject:
my family leccy tradition started in the late 1880's it has some merits sticks, stones and string have some merits, even that was a bit rough on the mega fauna of places not used to folk with a taste for giant chickens etc

NorthernMonkeyGirl

Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 4630
Location: Peeping over your shoulder

Posted: Sat Jul 08, 23 8:21 pm Post subject:

(Radon update - no significant levels found. Haven't fitted that extractor fan yet but have had the bathroom window open since about March)

I think the problem is retrofitting. Insulation is great! Until it has effects on the water vapour within and throughout the building. I loathe passivhauses, they suffocate me. But there has to be a midway point of just enough intervention to give benefits. Perhaps, for older folks in older houses, the way forward is actually light weight battery operated heated clothes? With minimal "frost proofing" house heat?

That's not considering the increasing impact of summers.

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 23 7:51 am Post subject:
If you fully insulate and draught proof a house you also need to ensure ventilation and air circulation. Must say in summer I prefer to have the windows open. We did have an air circulation system which also dehumidified which worked quite well but it is broken and we haven't repaired it as the reason for it has passed.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Jul 20, 23 4:19 pm Post subject:
enemy action heat pumps need to show they are viable but spoilers at the trial is less than helpful

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Fri Jul 21, 23 7:29 am Post subject:

I don't think hydrogen is going to just take over the gas network as it is rather too good at finding tiny holes and going bang. It might be a partial solution, but then heat pumps are only a partial solution as well. Unfortunately the real solution is to look at each house individually and work out the best solution for it, and for that solution to be available and affordable. As the article says, the 'one size fits all' isn't going to work. I think if we fitted a heat pump (which is possible in our house) we would go for air distribution and a wood fire to add localised additional heat. I don't think a heat pump with our current radiators would do the job. In a terraced house, a heat pump might not be a solution, but a local distribution network might be, possibly wood chip. That would of course course problems with who pays how much of course. Insulation generally needs to be improved and air distribution throughout the house dealt with to prevent mould build up.

Nicky cigreen

Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 9887
Location: Devon, uk

Posted: Sat Jul 22, 23 9:39 am Post subject:
totally agree that you need a solution for each property. I have yet to find one for mine though (not that I would, but can't even knock it down and rebuild as conservation area/national park)

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 23 1:35 pm Post subject:
uptake by country one factor is the cost of leccy to run the HE unit, others include local political nudges to reduce gas dependency, the cost of gas and the level of counter propaganda

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Sun Dec 24, 23 8:26 am Post subject:

Interesting. I think there are several things that have influenced it; as they say, the ambivalent and fluctuating nature of government help, lack of independent advice, which is certainly a factor for us, cost and the suitability of UK housing stock. Terraces of poorly insulated houses in cities may not be the best place to install heat pumps, as the noise can be rather problematical apart from other considerations, and the insulation would have to be done first adding to cost.

I looked up grants for insulation and other things and it depends on not only whether you are financially eligible but you also need to have had a survey of the house recently, which costs money which those eligible for grants may not have.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46244
Location: yes

Posted: Wed Dec 27, 23 4:53 pm Post subject:
news

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15993

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 23 9:54 am Post subject:
Interesting. One thing I note in addition to the heat pumps in that article is the move away from 'fossil fuels', yet the Guardian is quite vociferously against burning wood, which is not a fossil fuel.

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28238
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 23 2:49 pm Post subject:
I'm curious as to how much heat pumps will improve over the next few years? It does seem to me that there is an awful lot of scope for improvement.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 23 9:24 pm Post subject:
Well the big next frontier is solid state heat pumps, but that will take a few years

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