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how many builders?
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cuff

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Tue May 16, 06 7:28 pm Post subject:
hi dave why should people not pay 4 estimates if thats all people are after. ask a solicitor they charge by the minute why should builders be expected to work a few hours 4 nowt.how many people will go to work tommorrow and say its ok start my shift in 4 hours, probably none

oddballdave

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Telford, Shropshire

Posted: Tue May 16, 06 8:26 pm Post subject:

cuff wrote:

hi dave why should people not pay 4 estimates if thats all people are after. ask a solicitor they charge by the minute why should builders be expected to work a few hours 4 nowt.how many people will go to work tommorrow and say its ok start my shift in 4 hours, probably none

It's a legal thing.
A quote is enforceable under law, so it needs to be right.
Estimates are just that, best guess. No need to be 100% accurate, so most builders and roofers offer free estimates.
If you like the look and sound of the trader (and if I like the look and sound of you as my client) then we could go ahead and quote. I only quote if there is a very good chance of getting the business. Very few people would expect to pay for a quote. After all you want to get the work so you would factor it into your quote. The problem comes if all you do is quote and never actually get the work, lots of work for no reward.

Dave

cuff

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Tue May 16, 06 8:38 pm Post subject:
good point. always traders from hell what about client from hell. wasent personalbut to many people expect a builder to turn up for other quotes when they now who there using

Gervase

Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 8655

Posted: Tue May 16, 06 8:46 pm Post subject:

cuff wrote:

always traders from hell what about client from hell.

Too bloody right! For every cowboy builder there are a dozen dithering clients who keep changing their minds, who think they know what they want but don't, but it might be like something they saw on telly once, and who want to fit a quart into a pint pot (and what are building regs anyway? Surely they don't apply to me?)

cuff

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Tue May 16, 06 8:51 pm Post subject:
sounds like you have been down that road 2

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46212
Location: yes

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 1:24 am Post subject:
3 take the middle one

bernie-woman

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 7824
Location: shropshire

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 7:39 am Post subject:

oddballdave wrote:

Write down what you want in as much detail as possible.
Get as many ESTIMATES as possible. These are usually free of charge.
Then pick two or three to QUOTE in writing against your specification with as much detail as possible.

HTH

Dave
a some time self employed roofer

Writing my own spec

- as previously stated, I am not a builder - how am I supposed to know what materials should be used in this extension - ? - I am going to have to trust someone in the first place to inform me of that - surely there is no way joe public know this stuff - I wouldn't expect a builder to know how to teach 100 18yr olds

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 7:56 am Post subject:

You don't necessarily have to know the full details, you can ask the builders for advice on the materials/appropriatenes of the method. But think things through like:

You want a roof - flat or pitched? Real slate, immitation, or will it be tiles? Felt? as above.
Windows - Size? material - uPVC/Softwood/hardwood? How many openers, what sort of handles/locks fittings, cheap plastic or brass?
Internal and external doors - again, plastic or wood, solid or hollow, style, with safety glass panels? brass or steel hinges, door knobs or handles, of what material/design.
Lighting and switches - what sort and where?
Electric Sockets - how many and where? Plastic/brass/chrome front?
Plumbing - what and where? Quailty of fixtures and fittings?
Floor - what are you going to put on the floor, carpet, lino, laminate, tiles?
Amount of insultation? = loads!
Exterior - materials are probaly specified by planning permission but if you have the choice - reclaimed bricks/new bricks? Of what design, size, colour? Or is going to be block and render?
guttering and down pipes - wood gutters? plastic? metal? reproduction cat iron? What colour?

Etc

Many things like switches, light fittings, sockets, toilets etc have a unit price and there more accurate you can be the closer your estimate will be to the final price.

Naomi

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1945

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 8:05 am Post subject:

My husband is a bricklayer/builder of over 20 years experience and he gives quotes for free .
However the hours he spends travelling out to jobs all over the county to price them and the time we spend pricing materials and labour, working out quantities and the getting then quote written up and sent out, only to be told that they've changed their minds is unbelievable!!!
We get so much time wasted by clients messing us about that it really is money lost, as that time could be spent earning!!!

My OH doesn't advertise (only his signwritten truck) and so virtually all his work comes from recommendations from past clients.
He is currently working on a grade II listed farmhouse locally and has been working with lime mortars ,lime and hair plasters etc ..No-one else locally seems able to take this work on ?

I'd definitely advise you choose a builder by recommendation. That way you will at least know that past clients have been happy with the work done and the price they have paid.
Also try to be as clear as possible about what you actually want done from the outset.

bernie-woman

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 7824
Location: shropshire

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 8:55 am Post subject:

Behemoth wrote:

Thanks Behemoth

We have done that already - so makes me feel much better

- am I right in thinking that by law builders have to put in the required amunt of loft insulation??

judith

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 9:13 am Post subject:

bernie wrote:

am I right in thinking that by law builders have to put in the required amunt of loft insulation??

Yes, but there is insulation and then there is ethical (and very, very expensive) insulation. OH is currently researching the different types and the difference in price is quite incredible.

oddballdave

Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 259
Location: Telford, Shropshire

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 4:33 pm Post subject:

bernie wrote:

We have done that already - so makes me feel much better

- am I right in thinking that by law builders have to put in the required amunt of loft insulation??

By law the builders have to comply with any regulations in force at the time of building.
So if there is a planned change in the law, between getting the quoute and actually implementing it. ie you took a year to get planning consent to actually do what you wanted (one of the planners demanded proof of the colour of brick to be used)[1] then the plan and quote has to be changed.

There is no need for you to know any of the building regs.

You ask for a wall in reclaimed red brick at the front of the house, to be insulated to current regulations or better.

Quote is given to comply with part ** of the building regulations with standard insulation at �?? with improved insulation at �??

Ask builder to mention appropriate legislation throughout the quote, because you may want better than legal minimum for which you are prepared to pay.

As a roofer, I need to know what insulation is required. No point in quoting you for Kingspan thermal barrier at �20 sq metre for your garage roof which requires no insulation at all. However if you intend to use your garage as a workshop/gym then I would point out that while you require no insulation (legally) you might want me to include a thermal block in the construction. You might want the minimum thickness, or you might want the really good stuff. Hopefully we would have discussed this during my site visit, and I would provide you with a written quote with all the options given so you can pick, choose and compare.

As I have said I am a part time roofer, not a builder but the construction rules and regs apply to us all. Hopefully by the time the build goes ahead, you will have a better understanding of what is about to be done. The alternative is for you to employ a site foreman/architect who will ensure that everything is done correctly, not necessarily the way you want it, but done correctly.

I have been caught by the client who wanted a garage roof at minimum cost. So I quoted for a replacement. When we actually started work, the clients son produced reams of paper and quoted that the beams were too far apart (they were for a floor to be walked on, but not for a REPLACEMENT roof which was not to be walked on), the insulation values for the wood were too low (again for an inhabited room, but not for a garage). The difference between my estimate and the work he wanted doing was nearly �1000 in materials and an extra 2 people-days of work. Fortunately I had only given an estimate not a quote, so we packed up everything and left. Cost me a days lost time, but that was cheaper than the hassle I would have had. Another roofer went in, did the roof, and it took him a year to get the money.

The trick is to tell the builder what you want then get the builder to tell you what he is going to do. Preferably in front of a third person who will tell you if there is a communication difficulty, ie your builder just doesn't get it. You keep saying recycled, he says remade.[2]

Dave

[1] Our estate was built in a particular coloured brick, which has since ceased production. The brick makers do a close approximation in colour but the name is nothing like the same. So the planners insisted that the original brick be used. None are available so they insisted that samples of old brick, new brick, weathered new brick be supplied to the full planning meeting for comparison. Consent was given, but it took 9 months.

[2] Example of communication difficulty:
A recycled brick - laymans term for a brick which has been used before.
A remade brick - brick which has been crushed, added to cement and reformed.
A reclaimed brick - brick which has been used for building previously which has been cleaned up to be used again.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46212
Location: yes

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 5:39 pm Post subject:
network for a good one and be prepared to wait for a start date .

cuff

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 133

Posted: Wed May 17, 06 7:26 pm Post subject:
spec is that not why you pay an architect

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Thu May 18, 06 8:08 am Post subject:

cuff wrote:

spec is that not why you pay an architect

Yes - but you either leave it in the hands of the architect to come up with something or you tell him what you want and he designs and specs it. Mind you in my experience architects are not immune from forgetting to include the width of a beam in their drawings.

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