Starting from scratch?

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Starting from scratch?
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Rhianwen

Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Location: East Yorkshire

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 8:08 am Post subject: Starting from scratch?

Hi all.

Just looking for some advice, if you don't mind.

We're looking at doing our garden for next summer. The soil is pretty poor and needs improving (quite chalky)

We plan on planting fruit trees, and wildflowers, a small veg plot, herbs, and some shrubs/bushes.

At the moment, it's grass, soil and weeds, with crab apple tree (healthy) and a willow (not healthy and coming down)

WHERE oh WHERE do I start? I know I have to weed the soil, but as I plan on growing organically, what's the best option for improving the soil and how soon should I be doing it?

I plan on introducing ladybirds and lacewings at the appropriate time, and getting some more worms. Maybe a hedgehog box somewhere as we have tons of slugs *shudders*

My garden isn't huge, but I figure it doesn't have to be really

Can anyone give me any pointers on getting this project off the ground please?

Rhi x

Northern_Lad

Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 14210
Location: Somewhere

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 8:29 am Post subject:
No expert, but here's my thoughts. If the tree's coming down, get it down first. Depends what kind of weeks you've got, but try to take them all off if practical. Visit a local stables and ask for a truck load of their finest muck, and rotivate it in. Oh, and do it all as soon as possible.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 8:35 am Post subject:

I guess it comes down to just how chalky it is and how much topsoil there is on top of the chalk. Saw Treacodactyl and Bugs's garden once, and they've got a slither of soil on top of chalk so making a veg patch somewhere like that is really hard work (but not un-doable).

Its only October, so plenty of time. I'd be tempted to have the tree out best you can, take out whatever perennial weeds you can, cover the veg patch with a good layer of manure (NL's advice there about stables is excellent, although if thats difficult ask at your local allotments where they get their muck) and simply cover it with black plastic.

Over autumn and winter is time to think abotu whether you want to be planting fruit trees or bushes; if you're after doing such things now is the time to get hold of catalogues of varieties. Not the cheapest, but in my opinion possibly the best source of such things is the ART (https://www.agroforestry.co.uk/).

And get seed catalogues in. See what it is you want to grow, have a think about the space you have and what you like eating, and take it from there.

Rhianwen

Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 21
Location: East Yorkshire

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 9:28 am Post subject:
thanks folks

Blacksmith

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 5025
Location: Berkshire

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 12:20 pm Post subject:
My garden soil is pretty poor, I found building raised beds helped, and I can only echo the muck from the stables................

oldish chris

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 4148
Location: Comfortably Wet Southport

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 12:42 pm Post subject:

Poor soil? Raised beds are essential. Stable manure is brilliant. Get as many compost bins as possible and compost everything you can lay your hands on!

When choosing veggie seeds, don't go for F1 hybrids, I have found (by trial and failure) that the old varieties will give some kind of a crop even on poor soil. Beets, i.e. beetroot, leaf beet and Swiss Chard will do well on incredibly poor soil!

Good luck, looking forward to reading of your successes next year!

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 12:45 pm Post subject:
Wild flowers mostly like poor soil, so don't manure the bits where you want to put them.

Jb

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 7761
Location: 91� N

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 12:47 pm Post subject:
Also if you have a lot of chalk then part of your problem will be drainage or rather too much of it so the ground will not hold a lot of water so you might like to look at what Beth Chatto does with her gardens as she specialises in gardening in dry environments.

gil
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 3:21 pm Post subject:

Herbs do well in poor soil, too (so as for wildflowers above).
Fruit trees need to get their roots down for good anchorage, so find where the deepest soil is. Have you a solid layer of chalk underlying, or is it fragmented ?
Sloes can do well on chalky soils, and I would guess blackcurrants too (they like pH7ish). You'll be growing any blueberries in a container filled with ericaceous compost (as they are acid-loving plants).
If you want to grow carrots spuds or parsnips in thin soil, defnitely go for raised beds.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 3:42 pm Post subject:

gil wrote:

If you want to grow carrots spuds or parsnips in thin soil, defnitely go for raised beds.

Or smaller varieties; carrots such as early nantes, paris market, and even some of the old varieties like danvers half long will be just fine in shallow soil.

Parsnips would be tougher, I'd go for something like hamburg parsley instead.

Spuds'll be okay I'd have thought if well earthed up? Although if I only grew things in a small space spuds wouldn't be my first choice of crop.

Andy B

Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 3920
Location: Brum

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 3:57 pm Post subject:
You could try one of those green manure crops, plant them now dig in in the spring.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46211
Location: yes

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 4:06 pm Post subject:

as much manure as you can get for the veg (lots ,buy it by the ton or get it for free if you can ,i dont know how big your garden is but a ton for every 10m2 would be a good start )
for ornamental stuff ,right plant ,right place (which is also the title of a book ,cant recall details but a librarian might help

)
spread your muck and carpet for the winter to kill weeds ,next year grow weed suppressors such as spuds ,the cucubit family maybe some nitrogen fixing beans ,when the early spuds come out plant late stuff for autumn and winter and continue the rotations until it is ace
some things will fail but that provides a new planting space (took me 4 goes to get beetroot to grow on this plot ).
ive not done dust on chalk but for dust /broken glass(ugh) over clay , the above works .
think of it as a three year plan to have rich ,weed free soil ,
it isnt quick unless you buy topsoil and often that is very weedy and daft expensive
mixed dung is not quite my bread and butter but it is the cucumber in it

have a look at help please my allotment is overgrown i got loads of good tips about soil improvement from that
look on the bright side you dont need to buy lime

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 5:43 pm Post subject:
I've a horrible feeling my proposed vegtable plot is full of bindweed. Will mulching with carpet rid of it, or do I need to speak nicely to George W? it's on clay (not ideal but I think its been well worked in the past, so have high hopes of growing something, other that mint, which was what it was covered in last time I was there!)

AnneandMike

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 890
Location: Over the hill and soon to be far away

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 6:07 pm Post subject:

wellington womble wrote:

I've a horrible feeling my proposed vegtable plot is full of bindweed. Will mulching with carpet rid of it, or do I need to speak nicely to George W? it's on clay (not ideal but I think its been well worked in the past, so have high hopes of growing something, other that mint, which was what it was covered in last time I was there!)

You've got a real problem there WW. I doubt that mulching will get rid of it unless you leave it on for 2 or 3 years. Bindweed will come back from a little bit of root so if you dig it over and get out as much as possible you need to dig out any new shoots as far down as you can follow the roots on an ongoing basis for as long as it takes. I hate to say it but glyphosate weedkiller may be your best solution and it is supposed to break down harmlessly in the soil.

moongoddess

Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 673

Posted: Tue Oct 03, 06 7:22 pm Post subject:

wellington womble wrote:

I've a horrible feeling my proposed vegtable plot is full of bindweed. Will mulching with carpet rid of it,

nay, nay and thrice nay, she says from experience of bindweed on clay soil.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

mg x

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