Monbiot against micro-generation

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Monbiot against micro-generation

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dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 06 9:34 pm Post subject: Monbiot against micro-generation

https://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/10/06/small-is-useless/

I think he's being a bit extreme.
He *is* scathing about roof windpower.
And solar pv. Without mentioning that it doesn't work after dark.
I'm not sure why he's down on solar thermal.

But he doesn't mention domestic CHP, which could generate worthwhile quantities of electricity 'in phase' with demand. And can be usefully deployed in urban areas.
And I'm baffled as to why he thinks DC might be better for power transmission than AC... ???
But I do agree that a large number of geographically diverse, large, renewable generators linked by a higher capacity grid would be a big step in the right direction.

I was brought up on the proverb that "a mickle maks a muckle" - which Monbiot disagrees with.
Where its an inefficient token piece of 'gesture politics', I'd agree with him. But I wouldn't say that applied to *all* microgeneration.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 06 10:08 pm Post subject:
Would it be unfair to charge GM with selective quotations which reinforce his position rather than uphold the generally accepted view?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46216
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 06 10:25 pm Post subject:
is he the bloke who decided he needed 5 allotments ?

puffedpride

Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 300
Location: bristol

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 06 9:14 pm Post subject:
He didn't say microgenration was bad full stop. He sais it should be used with caution and not regarded as 'the way forward', getting rid of the national grid etc. He highlights some problems that often get conveniently overlooked re compromised performance in inappropriate locations. Dougal - you know more about this than anyone!

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 06 11:24 pm Post subject:

I make no personal claim for authority.

Much as I agree with his criticisms of roof-mount turbines (OK, I'm pleased to see him supporting what I've been saying for ages) I think he's using a brush that's *too* broad when he says:

Monbiot wrote:

Some campaigners accept that micro generators can make only a small contribution, but argue that they are still useful, as they wake people up to green issues. It seems more likely that these overhyped devices will have the opposite effect, as their owners discover how badly they have been ripped off and their neighbours are driven insane by the constant yawing and stalling of a windmill on a turbulent roof.

He is applying his valid criticism of urban roof turbines to ALL micro energy generation, which IMHO isn't really justified.

nathanbriggs

Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Chester

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 06 10:45 pm Post subject:

Why do people read something and despite being relatively intelligent then start using what they've read as though they understand it? Monbiot (for just one example) says that DC cabling has less losses than AC for long distance transmission. This is true and is the reason why for example the channel link to France is DC. He then goes on to say that offshore wind farms should be generating DC and then somhow this high voltage DC would be miraculously converted to usable energy for distribution??

Anybody with some basics of electric grid design and a calculator can demonstrate that the miniscule saving in DC cabling is more than lost in inversion for connection to the existing grid or worse if you tried to make some new high voltage DC grid massively lossy when you tried to make domestically useful power.

I'm not even getting into the rest of this guy's idiocy having a couple of books and a newspaper article doesn't give you the ability to turn facts and proven technologies into "Useless" wastes of money.

puffedpride

Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 300
Location: bristol

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 06 3:39 pm Post subject:

nathanbriggs - GM is not an idiot, and you know it. You just disagree with his views.

In my opinion, Monbiot is an excellent investigative journalist. He has a healthy ability to question things where widespread assumptions have been made. However, he is perfectly capable of making mistakes, like anyone. You may have spotted such a mistake (I know very little about electricity...)

If he is wrong about the DC thing I'm sure he'd genuinely welcome constructive feedback from you. He is contactable via his website. I imagine he would hate to have proposed an energy solution that won't work, and would seek publicly to correct himself. (He has done this before).

I know he has his political axes to grind, but he does seem to be a person capable of changing his mind in the light of new evidence, certainly with regard to energy generation, anyway.

boisdevie1

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3897
Location: Lancaster

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 06 6:24 pm Post subject:

I was impressed by his article. I think in terms of efficiency then microgeneration is not that efficient. As I understand it, if you have a small turbine then you have to store your exess power in batteries. By far the most eco friendly option surely would be to share a bigger turbine by a few households and sell excess power back to the grid.

But I think the big issue is that in so many ways we're at stage 2 of the eco debate.
Stage 1. There's no global warming, it's not a problem.
Stage 2. OK, there's a problem but with a combination of renewables, carbon offsetting, recycling, biodiesel and the wonders of technology we can continue as we are doing withouth having to change our consumption patterns very much.

I hope that Stage 3 might be reached soon. When the politicians have the guts to tell the public that actually we're going to have to change massively how we do things. The cynic in me thinks that we'll reach Stage 3 when it's way too late because most of the public and politicians are too stupid/selfish to see the seriousness of the problems we face until they're smacked in the face.

puffedpride

Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 300
Location: bristol

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 06 7:21 pm Post subject:
Spot on analysis!

nathanbriggs

Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Chester

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 06 10:54 pm Post subject:

boisdevie1 wrote:

I think in terms of efficiency then microgeneration is not that efficient. As I understand it, if you have a small turbine then you have to store your exess power in batteries. By far the most eco friendly option surely would be to share a bigger turbine by a few households and sell excess power back to the grid.

This is absolutley true, in that a mini turbine is overall better than a micro in terms of payback etc. But conservatively with the nimby problem how many mini's do you think we can get installed in the next 5 years? Micro YOU can do now, set an example and start to change the world. And just because its a small change doesn't make it less worth while and just how efficient do you have to be converting free renewable energy.

But I agree role on stage 3.

As for mobiot we will just have to disagree, I know he is i n the business of selling papers and being opinionated is part of that, and I haven't read any of his other work, but to dismiss microgeneration as useless seems to me to be the act of someone doing sloppy research, he even seems to think solar water heating is useless yet there are 10,000's of installs in the UK and millions world wide to prove him wrong, really how well did he research this??

Ben W

Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 7
Location: west midlands

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 06 10:29 pm Post subject:

boisdevie1 wrote:

if you have a small wind turbine it will be either linked to the grid or batteries.

if you have a grid link then the excess you are not using goes in to the grid, and reduces the bills. if you have a battery system the excess goes to a heat dump that will be either an immersion heater or a radiator of some sort. that doesnt make it inefficient, but there are losses when storing energy in batteries because of the losses in the charger electronics (also environmental impact). a grid linked system will be doing useful work all the time and reduce the load on the power station.

however, everybody buying a wind turbine is not the answer as it will not sort out all of the problems we face, which are that the load on the grid goes up and down at different rates to the available energy from solar / wind.

GM does seem to be tarring all micro with the same brush in the quote that I read. Solar hot water will always be a good idea.

You are right to say that it is financially and sustainably more sensible to club together and buy a wind turbine, and here are the figures: this is a rough price guide we quote at my company

600w peak turbine on 10m mast approx �12,000
2500w peak turbine on 10m mast approx �15,000
6000w peak turbine on 10m mast approx �20,000

Spending an extra �3000 gets four times the peak power
Spending an extra �8000 gets 10 times the peak power

this equates to many times more kwhours over the course of the year

hope this helps

Ben

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