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VSS

Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 2845
Location: Llyn Peninsula, North Wales

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 07 3:09 pm Post subject: biofuel
My OH has decided it is time to run his aging daihatsu on Veg oil (90% mix). Once started it runs like a dream, only smells like a barbeque. The problem it getting it started. He is thinking of putting in a dual tank system, run on diesel for the first mile or two, then switching to the main veg oil tank once warm. Any one out there have any experience of this? www.viableselfsufficiency.co.uk

skedone

Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 351
Location: essex inbetween a blue bit and a green bit

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 07 3:19 pm Post subject:

the ignition is down to unpure bio fuel here are few links to help u out mate also make sure u filter it really really wel and also it works ALOT better with used oil the fresh stuff is not so good

Code:

http://www.schnews.org.uk/diyguide/howtomakebiodiesel.htm

Code:

http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 07 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: biofuel

VSS wrote:

... Once started it runs like a dream, only smells like a barbeque. The problem it getting it started.

The smell is from the unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust.
Not terribly clean.

The starting problem with *oil* is a clear indication that you are using a fuel that doesn't meet the manufacturer's specification!

Biodiesel (and fossil diesel for that matter) vapourises much more easily than straight veg oil, and so starting (with glowplugs) isn't a problem with the type of fuel the engine was designed to use.

Starting on Veg oil gets even more difficult in cold weather.

A dual tank system should also include an oil heater, so that with the engine started on 'proper' diesel/bioidiesel, it changes over to run on warm oil.
The human part of the control system (yes the bit that gives problems) must remember that (a minute or so) before *stopping*, you should change back to diesel so that the injector system is properly primed with the right stuff, ready for the next start.

/mounts hobbyhorse

Rudolf Diesel didn't 'invent his engine specifically to run on veg oil'.
That is an internet myth, repeated over and over again.
Sadly it isn't true.
The first ever independent performance figures for one of his engines were reported using *fossil* petroleum fuel. (1897 Prof Schroter at Augsburg)
Diesel demonstrated his engines running on various fuels - including milk *powder* and *powdered* coal, oh yes and veg oil too. But his original engine was not specifically designed for these fuels.
The miniature high pressure fuel pump that made possible the first road vehicle with a 'diesel' engine wasn't even *invented* until about 20 years after Diesel's death.
-- source of these statements: Encyclopedia Britannica 14th (1929) Edition
It means that that pump, and its injectors, simply are not designed to run on veg oil (or pulverised coal).

Apart from starting (vapourisation) difficulties, there is a longer term problem, with the injectors being, quite literally, "gummed up".
Veg Oil (and esp used cooking oil) has rather a lot of gums. (You know how sticky a chip pan gets? Then you know what I'm on about.)
Vehicle 'veg oil' conversions do nothing about the gums.
Different injector/pump designs have different tolerances for oil and its gums.
Old Mercs reputedly have few problems but modern ultra high pressure injectors (like VW's "pd" models IIRC) gum up quickly. And are damn expensive.
Biodiesel is a very good solvent (hence its reputation for loosening gunge that then bungs up filters). Running biodiesel occasionally should help to control the gum buildup.

But for a modern diesel engine, it'd be better to run on biodiesel all the time - it really is a much more suitable fuel for a modern engine than veg oil. That's why anyone bothers with it.

/ gets off hobbyhorse

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 9:21 am Post subject:
Has biofuel gone out of fashion around here? It hasn't been talked about for ages.

vegplot

Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 21301
Location: Bethesda, Gwynedd

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 9:40 am Post subject:
I presume it's because it's now very difficult for home brewers to get hold of waste oil in sufficient quantities due to legislation.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 11:41 am Post subject:
Plus the cost of virgin veg oil is nearly the same as white diesel so runing on SVO is hardly worth it.

maryf

Joined: 25 Oct 2009
Posts: 341
Location: suffolk

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 2:40 pm Post subject:
When I ran a pub (came out of it five years ago) I had loads of used oil, OH ran his van almost exclusively on it, but did put proper pump diesel in every now and then, more so in the winter, no real probs. Currently changing back to a diesel car, but unfortunately havn't found a used chip oil source locally Any offers??

mousjoos

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1986
Location: VERY Sunny SW France

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 4:03 pm Post subject:
If it's a fourtrak (the only 4x4!!) then it can in theory run on 100% veg oil. The thing with 'traks is filter changes.... every 3000miles is best, but be prepared for more frequent if running veg oil. Filter kits from Milners �10 for the 3 all in, at the last count. Maybe start, as you say, with 90%, but in general there are no real issues with it.

Hairyloon

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 15425
Location: Today I are mostly being in Yorkshire.

Posted: Wed Jun 23, 10 11:55 pm Post subject:

RichardW wrote:

Plus the cost of virgin veg oil is nearly the same as white diesel so runing on SVO is hardly worth it.

Depends where you get it. If you get it straight from the farm, it can be 70p/l.
And it has never been very good idea to run on virgin oil when it burns just as well after cooking chips in it.

mousjoos

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1986
Location: VERY Sunny SW France

Posted: Thu Jun 24, 10 4:29 am Post subject:
If you buy from supermarkets, it appears Tesco have lifted their retsriction on how much you can buy

brettgilbert77

Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 13

Posted: Fri May 09, 14 8:56 pm Post subject:

I get mine at 75ppl at Makro and run 100% veg oil.

In the colder months I will mix in 5-10% petrol to reduce viscosity.

What is the 10% of your OH's mix consisting of?

A twin tank system can be fairly simple. Two 12v solenoid valves, a separate tank, a few switches, 12v pump and a temperature sensor. Also a flat plate heat exchanger from a combi boiler to heat the veg from the coolant lines is useful, as is a coolant heated fuel filter on the veg line. Insulating the fuel lines to the IP and too and from the veg tank will retain the heat produced.

He could also look at fitting a flame plug too.

Or he could make Bio Diesel, which if done right will not be any different to normal dino diesel, although after a while the car might increase in perfomance and reduce emissions as the caustic nature of bio cleans the crud from the inside of the eongine.

brettgilbert77

Joined: 09 May 2014
Posts: 13

Posted: Sun May 11, 14 5:44 pm Post subject:
Here's a useful page on the Wiki site which shows some good information on how to go about a twin tank system https://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Heat_exchangers_and_solenoid_valves

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