Don't believe in climate change???

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Don't believe in climate change???
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OP

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 07 7:20 pm Post subject:
Really?

gingerwelly

Joined: 08 Dec 2005
Posts: 419
Location: Wales ...in cardiff at the mo but from mid wales

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 07 7:38 pm Post subject:
well ok im looking at it from a palaeoceanographic point of veiw ....but the data from marine sediment and ice cores does show a very steep change that is more rapid than during other periods (that are represented )

OP

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 07 7:53 pm Post subject:
OK, I believe you ... but my point remains, many people see this not as a need to do something urgent to reduce global warming, but as an opportunity to raise taxes.

oldish chris

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 4148
Location: Comfortably Wet Southport

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 07 5:06 pm Post subject:

orangepippin wrote:

OK, I believe you ... but my point remains, many people see this not as a need to do something urgent to reduce global warming, but as an opportunity to raise taxes.

(My emphasis - chris)

Who are these "many people" and what happens to the taxes? Some people think that the polluter should pay to have their excrement cleaned up, some others don't care who pays for anything as long as it ain't them!

If more people think that the causes of global warming should be taxed loads then the first step to reducing the imminent disaster might be made.[/i]

AnneandMike

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 890
Location: Over the hill and soon to be far away

Posted: Sat Oct 20, 07 5:55 pm Post subject:

oldish chris wrote:

If more people think that the causes of global warming should be taxed loads then the first step to reducing the imminent disaster might be made.[/i]

If The Times is to be believed, Labour thought about big increases in car taxation for the last Pre-budget statement but, after polls in marginal seats showed that voters wouldn't like it, they didn't act. It proves that Governments adopt the most popular position (is there any difference between Tory and Labour any more???) even when that position ignores overwhelming global challenge.

I suppose 'we' get the government 'we' deserve.

Shane

Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 3467
Location: Doha. Is hot.

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 07 7:25 am Post subject:

AnneandMike wrote:

It proves that Governments adopt the most popular position

An obvious consequence of democracy, surely?

OP

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 07 9:42 am Post subject:

I don't think environmental taxes are a solution to global warming. The government might try to get a big increase in car taxation on environmental grounds but it would not lead to a reduction in car usage because in most cases people have no alternative. If people are unable to change their behaviour then it is just another tax.

Increasing taxes is not a substitute for actually doing something about global warming. *Reducing* taxes on the other hand, e.g. reducing council tax for houses which install extra insulation etc etc might be more successful.

AnneandMike

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 890
Location: Over the hill and soon to be far away

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 07 6:06 pm Post subject:

orangepippin wrote:

Although I agree with your second point, I don't accept that "people are unable to change their behaviour". Much car use is the consequence of deliberate choice - many (or most?) people choose to live a long way from work and so 'have' to drive and they do this because it is economically viable. Make car driving more expensive and some people will make different choices. In the end, fuel shortages will cause this to happen anyway (unless you believe in the tooth fairy solution like George Bush does.)

OP

Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 4661
Location: Yorkshire

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 07 6:58 pm Post subject:

People also get made redundant and have to work elsewhere, or can't afford to buy a house in the city so end up living in cheaper areas outside. Why should they be taxed more because they don't have the opportunity to live near to where they work? And inspite of the billions in tax paid by motorists, subsidised public transport solutions are often inflexible and expensive? There are no easy answers I guess.

AnneandMike

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 890
Location: Over the hill and soon to be far away

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 07 6:41 pm Post subject:

orangepippin wrote:

Perhaps one answer is to make public transport flexible and cheap. It works like that in many European countries.

The point I am trying to make is that we can change the way we live and our Government should be taking measures to make this happen. They don't all have to be punitive. However, current lifestyles are quite simply unsustainable and it will be better for society to start to make steady changes now rather than massive ones later.

PeteS

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 874
Location: Hampshire

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 07 11:09 pm Post subject:

gingerwelly wrote:

but the climate change we are seeing today is faster than any other change that is recorded in the geolgic history we have availble.

I do believe that global warming, or to be more correct man made climate change, is taking place but the above is not correct. This sums it up as well as supporting global warming...

https://www.wunderground.com/education/abruptclimate.asp

'We generally consider climate changes as taking place on the scale of hundreds or even thousands of years. However, since the early 1990s, a radical shift in the scientific understanding of Earth's climate history has occurred. We now know that that major regional and global climate shifts have occurred in just a few decades or even a single year. The most recent of these shifts occurred just 8200 years ago. If an abrupt climate change of similar magnitude happened today, it would have severe consequences for humans and natural ecosystems. Although scientists consider an abrupt climate change unlikely in the next 100 years, their understanding of the phenomena is still a work-in-progress, and such a change could be triggered instantly by natural processes or by human-caused global warming with little warning'.

PeteS

Joined: 06 Dec 2006
Posts: 874
Location: Hampshire

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 07 11:22 pm Post subject:

gingerwelly wrote:

well ok im looking at it from a palaeoceanographic point of veiw ....but the data from marine sediment and ice cores does show a very steep change that is more rapid than during other periods (that are represented )

Errrr... no...

https://www.aip.org/history/climate/rapid.htm

'The 1980s and 1990s brought proof (chiefly from studies of ancient ice) that the global climate could indeed shift, radically and catastrophically, within a century � perhaps even within a decade'.

Andy B

Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 3920
Location: Brum

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 07 8:36 am Post subject:

orangepippin wrote:

Has the government ever said how it was going to spend the extra taxes raised to slow down global warming?

AnneandMike

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 890
Location: Over the hill and soon to be far away

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 07 8:24 pm Post subject:

Andy B wrote:

Has the government ever said how it was going to spend the extra taxes raised to slow down global warming?

Not really, and that is an important point. If so called green taxes were ring fenced and the revenue raised was spent on obvious green measures, the taxes would be much more acceptable to Joe Public. Surely it is not beyond the wit of our leaders to do this?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46340
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 07 9:23 pm Post subject:
mutate and survive

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