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dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Tue Mar 22, 05 10:59 am Post subject: Re: wind turbine

Nanny wrote:

what i will want to know is

1: how much will it cost to install for the normal household

That depends!
On how you have it mounted, how high and how far from the house. Its just the cost of cable and the mechanical errection. I suspect they may be hoping to bolt it onto the house, but this cannot give all-round exposure to get efficient harvesting of unobstructed wind. That would be cheap to fit but not very effective. Good only for bragging rights.

Nanny wrote:

2: how much money will it save me on the quarterly bill

That depends!
On how windy your site is, (and how that wind is distributed), how exposed/sheltered the installation is, what you currently pay for electricity, how much electricity you use *constantly*, what the weather's like, whether the wind is blowing when you are using no power at all...
Its very hard to say.

Nanny

Joined: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 4520
Location: carms in wales

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 8:01 am Post subject: wind turbines

all very good points sean and how will they answer them without installation ..i don't know as i don't really understand it all

i want to be more energy efficient but equally i don't want to be taken for a mug....................

we are on a very windy site - one of the highest points round here and although some of the wind is fouled, most of it cuts straight up the garden and against the side of the house so i would imagine that we could have a turbine on the side of the building but i don't know for sure of course.................we must be in a fairly good area for it as there are big plans for a proper wind farm within 4 miles of here subject to all the normal complaints and planning stuff that goes with th really huge turbines...........

i think we are on to a wait and see and read and inwardly digest period of time to see what other people have to say before we commit our hard earned shekels

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 11:42 am Post subject:
There's also debate as to whether they can recoup the embodied energy within the expected lifespan of 10 years.

nathanbriggs
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 4:25 pm Post subject: Windsave

Hello all, my company Advance Electronics is helping Windsave pass G83 testing at the moment.

Yes this means you can directly connect the Windsave power into the mains (although not by just plugging it in it must be hardwired). Its production of electricity will reduce your demand on the DNO meter.

It is not normally cost effective to fit a two way meter for small site generation like windsave so if your consumption is less than the wind output you will export to your neighbours.

Passing G83 means the Windsave box is Grid quality power (actually better than the average wall socket) and there are NO shunt loads

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45671
Location: Essex

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 4:35 pm Post subject:
Hi Nathan Sounds excellent, you should register. Any idea on my point about the embodied energy payback?

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: Windsave

nathanbriggs wrote:

...It is not normally cost effective to fit a two way meter for small site generation like windsave so if your consumption is less than the wind output you will export to your neighbours.

Um..?
Are you saying that any excess power *would* be exported to the grid, but, lacking a two-way meter, you won't get any credit/money for the exported power? (Acknowledged that there wouldn't likely be much.) And since all neighbours' consumption goes through their meter(s), they'll pay their utility co for the power generated by your Windsave...?

hardworkinghippy

Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 1110
Location: Bourrou South West France

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 8:46 pm Post subject:

Talking about buying green electricity ....

I just don't know what the French government is thinking about with this bit of nonsense - today's news;

"Dans le cadre du projet de loi d'orientation sur l'�nergie, la commission des Affaires �conomiques de l'Assembl�e a vot� un amendement UMP qui r�serve le b�n�fice de l'obligation d'achat d'�lectricit� aux parcs d'une puissance sup�rieure � 30 m�gawatts."

In other words, unless you produce more than 30 megawatts the French electricity companies will not buy your "home produced" electricity.

Hard luck for individuals here who've paid serious money investing in an expensive wind/solar system suitable for connection to the grid. Hard luck too for farmers who've spent time and money putting up little wind farms for their local community.

Thank goodness we decided to go it alone.

Our little wind generators are piddly silly little things, but they keep us going day and night and supplement our solar panels just enough to make sure that we've light and enough energy to keep in contact with folk via the 'net.

HWH

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 8:51 pm Post subject:
That really is crap.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Wed Mar 23, 05 10:01 pm Post subject:
Is there a 'reason' behind the storey? Some nuclear lobbying or similar? I'd have also thought there would be some Euro law making countries buy as much energy from green sources as possible.

nathanbriggs

Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Chester

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 05 12:03 pm Post subject:

Exactly right Douglas if your consumption is less than your production you would be helping the electricty companies make money, but this is honestly very unlikely, peak output from the windsave box is about 1.6KW and most domestic homes have a pretty steady base load >1KW, unless of course your a rabid conservationist! One of Advance's long term plans is to sell the home automation hardware to switch in demand when this might happen.

Having said all this I'm sure the hobbyist/ecologist would also use the Windsave system off grid (with a minor modification) and be able to use all power generated. However the beauty of the system is its grid-tie.

The payback is hotly debated in forums all over, basically if you have a very windy spot and don't use electricity for heating reductions should be 33% and if you do payback should be sub 6 years. With grants that the government has promised including the increase in ROC payments this should fast come below 5 years.

One of Windsave's main aims is to get a sufficiently large field population to become an influence in the ROC discussion, at the moment small generators have no voice.

Treacodactyl
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 25795
Location: Jumping on the bandwagon of opportunism

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 05 12:45 pm Post subject:

nathanbriggs wrote:

I think our use would be much less than 1KW overnight as it would only run a fridge and freezer. Some form of storing energy would be ideal.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Thu Mar 24, 05 2:24 pm Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

...Some form of storing energy would be ideal.

Energy storage technology is a significant scientific/engineering problem, without any very good answer yet. Safe, domestic energy storage is expensive and low capacity.
Think of electric cars. Their massive battery packs provide about the same quantity of energy as a single gallon of petrol. And need monitoring for their own self preservation.
Adding batteries, monitoring and DC/AC conversion, and space to keep that kit, could easily double the cost of the Windsave...
IMHO the most sophisticated storage of renewable energy is in Biofuels.

Nathan's point is that storage costs are avoided by deliberately sizing the system so small that it is covering just the constant ("base") load. But I'm with you T in saying that real energy consciousness should start with reducing that base load...
Probably more practical than batteries, would be diverting surplus generated energy to heating domestic hot water. It shouldn't be too difficult to hack the immersion heater circuitry...

judyofthewoods

Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 804
Location: Pembrokeshire

Posted: Sun Mar 27, 05 1:34 pm Post subject:

Thats an excelent idea, dougal. Much better to use the 'waste' to reduce your own overall consumption and costs, as putting it back into the grid won't make any diference to the generation at the power plant, nor benefit you financially, especially when you have to then buy their electricity to warm the water when the wind isn't blowing. Water is to some extent a storage solution for the excess power.
I would also suggest to anyone who plans on getting solar panels not to get a solar charge regulator but a shunt regulator which would normally be used with induction generating devices like wind and hydro. Solar regulators will simply shut off the electricity flow to the batteries when they are full (through pulse width modulation, a sequence of on/off electronic switching, where the off phase is longer than on according to the state of charge) as PV panels are not damaged by an open circuit. A shunt regulator on the other hand will divert the excess electricity to a dump load, i.e. a device which uses that power fully, because the generator would be damaged if the flow of electricity was interupted and the generator continued to run.
There are two advantages of using the shunt type regulator on solar panels:
1) if you expand the system to a hybrid system, you don't have to get a new regulator for the wind/hydro geny.
2) any excess electricity from the solar panels after the batteries are full, can be used. Typically a shunt load would be a resistive load such as a heating element. Heating devices could be used in many ways, a hot bed for growing, heating or pre heating water, keeping a cupboard or shed aired, or running a camping fridge (evaporative system, rather than compressor - the type which run on LPG/electricity - some on 12V - do not use 240V versions, as they have a thermostat which would cut off the power when the fridge is cold). As surplus electricity is more likely in the summer with PV panels, the fridge dump load would be a better use. An electronic dump load is also possible, but must be carefully sized, set up and monitored, as any failure in the more complex system could damamge the batteries, and ultimatly the generator if the system is expanded to wind/hydro. A Peltier coolbox with plenty of extra insulation and no thermostat to cut off the power supply is another cheaper option than a camping fridge for a summer dump load. If wind/hydro is added, the dump load can be switched to heating in the winter.

Its also best to go for a charge regulator which has a higher capacity than needed, as it allows for expansion. The extra capacity won't add as much to the cost as getting another controller to handle the extra power.

nathanbriggs

Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Chester

Posted: Tue Mar 29, 05 10:22 am Post subject:

Treacodactyl wrote:

I think our use would be much less than 1KW overnight as it would only run a fridge and freezer. Some form of storing energy would be ideal.

Agreed but the PEAK output is 1.6KW unless its VERY windy all night you won't see anything above 300W as an average.

Storing Energy is difficult as others have mentioned and I applaud the use of a "shunt load". My preference though is not to have a custom/expensive system just for management of the power you produce hence a grid-tie system and a home automation box to switch in a shunt load. Imagine a CT on your main incomer that senses current flowing out of your house and turns on your immersion heater.

Technology should simplify our lives not complicate it.

Res

Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 1172
Location: Allotment Shed, Harlow

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 05 5:03 pm Post subject:

nathanbriggs wrote:

Technology should simplify our lives not complicate it.

Hear Hear. I fully agree with that. The only trouble is, the momentum normally gets lost when large companies buy up the technology and buries it in it's achive, then carries on selling us their own old technology or am I just sinicle?

Hopefully this new system will get off the ground without too much hassel, then the government can bring out a wind generation tax

Dont miss a trick, those bods.

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