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VM

Joined: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1748
Location: Lincolnshire

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 11:00 am Post subject: Seasonal meat

Not quite sure where to put this - can someone move it if there's a better place for it?

Wondering about the seasonality of various kinds of meat. I associate venison and other game with autumn, though not absolutely sure why - is it because of not killing wild animals during breeding season?

So, when exactly is the season for venison. And if venison is available in some places all year round, where is it coming from?

And veal - i.e. British rose veal - is this something which is more available at some times of year than others - and when?

Does anyone know places I can get veal? I have this bizarre idea that if one consumes lots of dairy produce, one ought also to eat veal...

And are some kinds of poultry, like duck or goose, seasonal, or is the association of e.g. goose for Easter based on old tradition and nothing to do with current farming practices.

All answers, even if accompanied by 'duh!' gratefully accepted.

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 12:10 pm Post subject:
I've moved it to Seasonal Shopping. At least it'll be easier to find and less likely to get swamped by other stuff.

Nick

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 34535
Location: Hereford

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 12:15 pm Post subject:
I think NeathChris toyed with rose veal as an idea. Drop him a PM.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 2:42 pm Post subject:
I just asked Nat about producing veal again and she said "NO!"

Marts

Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 352
Location: London

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 3:01 pm Post subject:
They repeated the River Cottage episode last night where he visits a Rose Veal farm. Unconnected, these guys produce Rose Veal and deliver through farmers fayre Midshire Rose Veal

T.G

Joined: 13 Sep 2009
Posts: 7280
Location: Somewhere you're not

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 3:14 pm Post subject:
went of veal years ago when as a girl i learned of how it came about - so whats rose veal when its at home? haven't paid much attention so i presume its a new producing method? VM, yes i'd say you're getting the autumn element from the glorious 12th when shooting is hmm - seem to recall some producers in the peak, which shouldn't be too far from you?

Marts

Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 352
Location: London

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 3:23 pm Post subject:
Rose Veal is along the lines of using Holstein Bull calfs (rather than a bullet at birth) and raising them under a higher welfare system than the European cage system. Some cereal is added to their diet which adds some fat and means their digestive tract actually develops (or something like that)

Mrs R

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 7202

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 4:46 pm Post subject:

Rose veal is a more welfare friendly system than the continental crates. I've done it, and spoiled them in every way possible, but you can't get away from the fact they're babies when they get killed. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. I won't even use calf rennet.

I also began questioning just how much this helps the dairy industry as a whole - it merely provides a market for the offspring of those extreme dairy types, allowing them to carry on (with their associated welfare issues) and calves to be seen as a by product. IMO it'd be better to eat proper beef from bull calves who get a decent life span, and drink the milk from strong-bodied, healthy cows. For this reason I only rear bullcalves as I would any other beef animal and as grass feeding is cheap, and the aim is not to make them fat, they are just as economical that way. And I only buy calves from 'sustainable' breeds - brown swiss, jersey etc.

Also, at the moment black&whites are acheiving a good price and routinely being reared to over a year for beef, modern thinking and feeding has allowed it so there's no real need to slaughter so young.

And veal is bland and boring.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 5:11 pm Post subject:

Not sure I agree about the slaughtering young thing.

Cows live to about 12 years (I think)
Pigs to 6-10 years (I think)
sheep to 5-8 years (I think)
chickens to 4-6 years (I think)

Yet we routinely kill at

cows under 30 months or 3-4 months for veal
pigs 12-16 weeks
lambs 12-52 weeks
chickens 4-12 weeks

So as a % of total life time
(rounded off)
cows 20% (at 30 months) or 2-3% for veal
pigs 3-4%
(what about suckling pigs?)
sheep 3-12%
chickens 1-4%

So veal is not that different to all the standard practices for other meats.

Mrs R

Joined: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 7202

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 6:05 pm Post subject:
Veal is anything under 8months officially, and they are still suckling their mums usually at that stage. They are definately still calves, babies, whatever the percentages say. Cattle can live into their 20s easily. They often wear out before then in farming systems but their 'natural' lifespan is much more than 12.

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 7:39 pm Post subject:

Nat S wrote:

Veal is anything under 8months officially, and they are still suckling their mums usually at that stage. They are definately still calves, babies, whatever the percentages say.

Cattle can live into their 20s easily. They often wear out before then in farming systems but their 'natural' lifespan is much more than 12.

I dont doubt that natural life time would be longer. But I used the normal ish farm life time for all of them.

Using 8 months would make them an even larger life time at about 4-6% so longer than all of them except sheep.

Only suckler herds would still be suckling at 8 months. Not sure as a % how much food value they are getting from the dam at that age over the grazing.

In human terms thats about a 4 year old.

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 7:53 pm Post subject:

In a 'normal' farming situation an awful lot of cows wouldn't last anything like 12 years, and for beef I bet the average is way below 30 months, same for pigs and chickens, but I don't think that makes any difference- we don't set our morals/timings on set percentages (most people wean babies long before the age of four, for example). Most of us here keep lambs, pigs and cattle longer than the commercial norms in any case.

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46209
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 8:06 pm Post subject:
quality of time matters more than time i recon

Rob R

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 31902
Location: York

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 8:11 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

quality of time matters more than time i recon

You'd be happy to kill Jemina now, then?

sako

Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 10 11:14 pm Post subject:
Regarding venison, there isn't a day in the year when you can't get some, you associate autumn with the main time because from 1st November in England that is when most deer control is carried out, i have venison in my house at all times of the year. Cheers Richard

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