B & Q and wind turbines

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B & Q and wind turbines
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moonwind

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 3:16 pm Post subject: B & Q and wind turbines

Had to go into B&Q this afternoon and see they are now selling or you buy via their stores wind turbines that are no bigger than a satellite dish.

They are priced just under ï¿½1'500 and the video about them, in the display area, says they will be energy efficient in financial terms within 5 years.

Has anyone else seen them, if so what is the opinion of these things?

Are they truly based on bettering the environment or are they geared to make someone a very nice profit ta muchly?

Northern_Lad

Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 14210
Location: Somewhere

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 3:17 pm Post subject:
See here

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 6:28 pm Post subject:

These are Windsave machines.
Anyone interested in the subject should search this site for the word Windsave. There's lots.
And read this article
https://observer.guardian.co.uk/cash/story/0,,1805154,00.html

While it is something of a relief that they appear to be on the point of production, all of the previous criticisms levelled still seem to be valid.

1/ The turbine blades are 2m across. They are a lot bigger than Sky dishes. And (hopefully) they move. However such things are not silent, particularly in turbulent wind.

2/ The structural wisdom of attaching a hundredweight of vibrating machinery to a pole attached to your house is something that building insurers will need to be convinced of.

3/ The economic case is unproven, and to those in the know, looks uncertain (to be more polite than some experts). It is not reassuring that the financial claims made by Windsave are so much grander than those made by any other wind turbine manufacturer. Or that they have been so reluctant to publish performance figures - how much power from how much wind. Without those figures, independently verified, **all** financial, or green, claims are just that - unsubstantiated claims by the people selling the thing.
And I don't like the easy way that they happily confuse 1/3 of the electricity (if only...) with "1/3 of the energy"... and are too reassuring about planning permission, poo-poo the noise issue and don't mention that should the thing ever be generating more than you are using, you will donate it to the grid - there's so little likely to be surplus that its not worth bothering to meter the export so as to sell it.

4/ One aspect of the performance (financial, green and simple output) that is in considerable doubt is whether Windsave are making any (let alone enough) allowance for the reduced efficiency caused by rooftop mounting. Or urban sites.
Putting a wind turbine on an urban roof is about as sensible as mounting a solar panel in the shade. Quite simply, its about as poor a site for such a device as you could find.
There will be shelter from some directions, turbulence from the roof its mounted near and from other nearby buildings. The turbulence increases turbine noise and reduces the power that can be extracted from the wind.
Windspeed lowdown (less than 20m) above built-up areas is distinctly slower than elsewhere. And the amount of power the thing can develop varies *critically* with the wind speed. A little more or less wind speed makes a massive difference to the available power. That's general for all wind turbines in their operating windspeed range.

5/ I'm an enthusiast for wind power.
But I'm very afraid that these things will be sold into comically unsuitable locations, and build a perception as yuppie green statements, that don't work well enough to generate a payback, and are annoying and possibly even dangerous.
And in so doing may hamper the use of wind power where it could be used effectively and harmlessly.
How much did the Sinclair C5 advance the acceptability of electric cars? Or did the excessive claims and evident underperformance prove horribly damaging? That's what worries me.

Remember INEBG? Dick Strawbridge insisted on mounting his Windsave turbine on a proper tower, high and well away from obstructions (and incidentally, the house). Wise man for that, at least!

Last edited by dougal on Fri Sep 29, 06 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 7:41 pm Post subject:

I would guess that most of the houses that this is aimed at are country properties. Given that most of those will be made of stone & lime mortar they have shot themselfs in the foot as its unsuitable for lime construction building due to the wind load & vibrations effect on the construction. They are also reluctant to do pole installs. Plus you have to have them do the install even if you are capable. They quote it as being the requiremnet of H & S which is bull s h i t. Yes H & S means as a biss you have to have safe / approved working practices but does not stop me climbing my own roof for personal reason.

Justme

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46217
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 7:46 pm Post subject:
see bbc news this morning sorry if that is where this started

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:04 pm Post subject:

dpack wrote:

see bbc news this morning
sorry if that is where this started

Isn't a thread headed "Wind Turbines" in "Energy" a more appropriate location than a misleadingly titled "Chat" thread?

moonwind

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:13 pm Post subject:

On the leaflet obtainable at B&Q stores, model available for inspection at the Carmarthen branch .. it says that this "bit of kit" qualifies for up to a 30% grant under the DTI Low Carbon Buildings programme - subject to conditions (**VERY interested what conditions**)

The firm has a URL of their own which can be found HERE

Everything's good in theory eh? There were lots of people looking at the strange beast anyway. It seemed a bit flimsy somehow, I think if we stuck one on the barn it would probably spin off to next doors fields when we get a good blow!

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:24 pm Post subject:

moonwind wrote:

On the leaflet ... it says that this "bit of kit" qualifies for up to a 30% grant under the DTI Low Carbon Buildings programme - subject to conditions (**VERY interested what conditions**)

Umm, that hasn't really been decided yet AFAIK...

Quote:

It is an awkward situation for the EST, which administers a new Department of Trade and Industry programme to fund 30 per cent of the cost of small-scale renewables. The Swift and Windsave turbines were accredited under a previous government scheme, Clear Skies, which did not require them to meet performance criteria, Archibald says. Clear Skies rolled over into a new scheme, the Low Carbon Building Programme, in April, meaning that the two turbines still qualify for grants - although the government has not yet announced the criteria that products will need to meet.

https://observer.guardian.co.uk/cash/story/0,,1805154,00.html
Very well worth a read.

Quote:

One consultant who sits on the government's renewables advisory board and has undertaken extensive testing of some of the turbines says: 'We found the performance of them is on average between 10 and 25 per cent of what the manufacturers are claiming.'

He's not saying that Windsave are 'over-hype-ing' their product is he?

moonwind

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:34 pm Post subject:
He's not saying that Windsave are 'over-hype-ing' their product is he? :LOL: It could be just a load of hot air then? Who knows what about those behind this Company? As in are there any links to the larger turbine manufacturers who have won significant contracts in this Country. Wouldn't it be possible to actually build a homemade device and save the Fifteen Hundred Quid?

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46217
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:37 pm Post subject:
ok

jema
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 28235
Location: escaped from Swindon

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:42 pm Post subject:
Whilst saving money should perhaps not be the primary or only consideration when getting one of these things, add on potential noise, maintenance and it taking the side of your house down in a storm and you seem to have a technology very much at the bleeding edge I was all of a buzz for 5 minutes this morning when I heard about them, rather deflated now.

moonwind

Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1140

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:43 pm Post subject:

Thought this bit of the report was very enlightening:-

..David Gordon, chief executive of Windsave, also defends the performance claims. He says that even at four metres a second, the turbine will produce more than 500 kwH a year, taking ï¿½60 off the average bill. Consumers will also be eligible to get a green energy certificate worth ï¿½60 from the government, taking the annual value of the electricity up to ï¿½120: 'And that has to be worth having.'..

There are an awful lot of "maybe's" and "what ifs" along with "possibly's" and "with certificates could be worth.."

Sort of self explanatory.

Idea is sound enough though.

Why can't people make their own?

Solar panels seem a good idea too, and have seen a solar insulated? type polytunnel advertised somewhere.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:52 pm Post subject:

moonwind wrote:

Who knows what about those behind this Company? As in are there any links to the larger turbine manufacturers who have won significant contracts in this Country.

Windsave is a Glasgow-based startup by an "entrepreneur" with no previous evident connection to the wind energy industry.
Plans for export to the USA and an IPO (share sale cashout for $50million) were announced before production started.
And still no performance figures.

Google them. Search this site. There are lots of excellent links in the older threads.
Its a great shame that NathanBriggs stopped posting here soon after his evaluation unit was installed...
I think its fair to say that the company got the PR in place long before the product was a reality.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 8:55 pm Post subject:

moonwind wrote:

Why can't people make their own?

https://www.scoraigwind.com/
and btw, see what they think of Windsave's claims...

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 06 9:00 pm Post subject:

moonwind wrote:

..David Gordon, chief executive of Windsave, also defends the performance claims. He says that even at four metres a second, the turbine will produce more than 500 kwH a year, taking ï¿½60 off the average bill. ...

However, at ***2*** metres/sec? Just ï¿½10 a year? Umm, just how long is that going to take to payback?
https://www.scoraigwind.com/citywinds/
for actual measurements of urban rooftop windspeeds

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