Alcohol sales online

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Alcohol sales online

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Old-Chads-Orchard

Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Location: Malpas, Cheshire

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 07 9:46 pm Post subject: Alcohol sales online

I am looking into selling products which will require me to get a drinks licence and wondered if anyone else has done it here?

My problem is with actually filling in the licence form (the council have been no help). It asks for the hours you will be selling alcohol, no on an online shop will that be 24h a day, 7 days a week or will it be the hours you are in you office proccessing the stock going out?
The first option will cause alot of hassle when applying for the licence but I don't want to get done for selling out of my selling hours. The licenceing dept of the local council can't answer the question

they just say put in you selling hours but can't tell me which it is, 24h or my 8h working day

sally_in_wales
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 20809
Location: sunny wales

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 07 9:49 pm Post subject:

Have you tried asking some of the other online offlicenses? Maybe pick half a dozen at random and ask them and if you get three answers you may be able to work out what is what. or, put a statement on the website that says 'you are welcome to place an order anytime but we only process and handle them within our licenced hours of...) No idea if that is legal, but if the authorities can't advise any further...

Penny Outskirts

Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 23385
Location: Planet, not on the....

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 07 10:04 pm Post subject:
Or have you tried looking at sites likes Tesco and such like who sell on-line? They may have a disclaimer about when they process it or something? Or if not them, a smaller wine site?

Helen_A

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1548
Location: MK, Bucks.

Posted: Fri Jan 05, 07 11:58 pm Post subject:

When you do your personal license holders course there is a section all about this very topic

You may need to get your premises licensed for off sales as well, even though they are never going to be open to the public for those purposes.

Although i suspect that a lot of the online alcohol sales co.s are actually having their orders drop shipped as by not handling the alcohol themselves they are avoiding the need to register/license premises.

Helen_A (who is going to do the license courses this year for the sheer hell of having them, and so if the pub from heaven appears on the market i'll be in the position to get on with it

)

sean
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 42219
Location: North Devon

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 11:02 am Post subject:
You didn't need a license to sell by the case in olden times. That loophole may have been closed now though, so don't rely on it.

gil
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 4:16 pm Post subject:

offroading.net wrote:

My problem is with actually filling in the licence form (the council have been no help). .....The licenceing dept of the local council can't answer the question

they just say put in you selling hours but can't tell me which it is, :

I know the feeling. At least you managed to get a form to complete. It is the same story north of the border, except that my (rural backwater) council have no idea how on-line sales are covered in law. They advised me to seek specialist legal advice.

Does your council know how to license ordinary mail order sales ? You could start from there.

My guess would be that your hours to fill in on te form are the business hours (9-5), as legally any sale contract has two parts : the buyer offers to buy, and the seller accepts their offer. Since the second stage is up to you, even if someone logs on and orders at 3am, you aren't going to make that sale legally binding by processing it (accepting their offer) till the following working day's normal business hours.

Mary-Jane : does that argument sound reasonable ?

BTW, does your local council know how to deal with alcohol sales at farmers markets ? Mine doesn't.

wellington womble

Joined: 08 Nov 2004
Posts: 15051
Location: East Midlands

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 6:02 pm Post subject:

gil wrote:

BTW, does your local council know how to deal with alcohol sales at farmers markets ? Mine doesn't.

That would be really useful if anyone does know. There are lots of honey producers round here, but none of them sell mead and I've always wondered whether its the timescale or the licensing that makes it a no-go. I've never seen any booze for sale on a market stall, anywhere, actually.

Old-Chads-Orchard

Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 394
Location: Malpas, Cheshire

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 8:00 pm Post subject:

gil wrote:

BTW, does your local council know how to deal with alcohol sales at farmers markets ? Mine doesn't.

Nope, thats another PITA I have tried to explain, they wanted me to apply for a temporary licence for each market, it would cost a fortune

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 8:00 pm Post subject:

gil wrote:

My guess would be that your hours to fill in on te form are the business hours (9-5), as legally any sale contract has two parts : the buyer offers to buy, and the seller accepts their offer. Since the second stage is up to you, even if someone logs on and orders at 3am, you aren't going to make that sale legally binding by processing it (accepting their offer) till the following working day's normal business hours.

Mary-Jane : does that argument sound reasonable ?

BTW, does your local council know how to deal with alcohol sales at farmers markets ? Mine doesn't.

Dont you accept the offer to buy when you charge the card used for payment? You could then set it up so every transaction is not completed till you personaly ok it. Is there a problem with putting 24 7? would you need to comply with extra rules & security ect?

Justme

gil
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 8:11 pm Post subject:

offroading.net wrote:

gil wrote:

BTW, does your local council know how to deal with alcohol sales at farmers markets ? Mine doesn't.

Nope, thats another PITA I have tried to explain, they wanted me to apply for a temporary licence for each market, it would cost a fortune

That's what I thought : an 'occasional' licence (the kind our parish hall gets for its twice-yearly dances) - and you need to know for sure that you will have a stall at the market.

Helen_A

Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 1548
Location: MK, Bucks.

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 07 8:29 pm Post subject:

The licensing laws have changed of late - now you hold personal licenses (on and off sales) and then premises licenses as well where relevent.

According to local TS here to sell alcoholic chocolates and/or alcohol in a farmers market setting I would need a personal license (mine or that of an 'overseer', for example the markets manager) for off sales. However if it was below a certain amount of alcohol in the chocolate then this may not apply... Mead would def. need a license holder to oversee at the very least

Helen_A

MarkS

Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2626

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 07 2:22 pm Post subject:

I think that you can be specific in your t&C about order acceptance and completion. The usual is, I think, that the order is accepted when you ship.

Think about all the cases where argos mis-price their plasma screens at �2.50. Everyone piles in and orders but the t&c are clear that even the email confirming the order does not mean that they accepting it.

try looking at online t&c - esp for supermarkets or on-line wine merchants.

percypony

Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 146
Location: Hants

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 07 5:45 pm Post subject:
I asked my council the other day about this as I wanted to offer sales of champagne and chocolates etc on my website. I needed a personal licence to be able to sell and a premises (or whatever it is called) to be able to store it. At this stage not finaicially worth it for me but I hope it all goes OK for you.

gil
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 07 1:55 pm Post subject:

An update on this issue, as it seems to pan out in Scotland. It will be different in England, but probably not by much.

Now that I've got through the initial hurdles, everyone (at the moment) is falling over themselves to be helpful and positive. Long may this continue to be the case !

My position is that I am a fruit-grower and winemaker, and sell direct to the public at Farmers Markets and by mail order, as well as to the on-/off-trade (hotels and wine merchants).

I hold a Wine Producers Licence from Customs and Excise, which also entitles me to store the wine on my premises once it is made (so if you make the alcohol yourself, you get a 'two-in-one' Licence). This does not cost anything. You simply contact HMRC, they send you an application form, you fill it in and send it back to them with a floor plan of your premises, a list of plant and equipment, and a description of your production process. They send you a Producers Licence. You can now make and store wine. Similar but different form/licence for beer or cider.

You agree a Duty Point with HMRC (the stage of production at which you start paying them Excise Duty [rates per hectolitre are on their website] on what you produce each month). It goes from there. They send you forms and an information pack. You send in monthly returns, and money. In theory, at some point, they come and inspect your premises and records.

I have also got an application in for an Off-Sales Licence to cover the mail order, and as a home base for the business. You get the application form from the local council (who will not help, but tell you to get specialist legal advice to complete the form). This is tosh. It is perfectly straightforward for an off-sales licence. But not so easy for pubs and hotels. You fill it in and send it back to them, along with a cheque for �172. The receipt of money makes the Council miraculously helpful.

Note that in Scotland, the Licensing Board only meets quarterly, so you need to find out when, and what the deadline is for sending in the application. Otherwise. like me, you can have a longer wait than expected.

Three weeks before the Board hearing, you pin a notice up where your property meets the public road, advising the public of your application. If you have neighbours, you notify them.

Other things happen : the Council posts a Notice of your Application in the local paper (so in a rural area like this, absolutely everyone knows); the local polis do a check on you, and phone you up to see if you are bona fide/sane/a crim.

You are advised to bring a solicitor with you to the Board hearing, which you attend in person as the applicant. Watch this space....

Unless there is good reason to reject your application, it must be granted.

On to the Occasional Licence. To do a Farmers Market, you get a form from the Council for an Occasional Licence, complete and return it 2 working weeks before the date of the Market, with the money.

The polis phone the Farmers market organisers to check that they know you will be attending and that you are bona fide. And also to check out the FM, if it is a new one, or if no alcohol licence has previously been applied for by a stallholder.

will add more as this unfolds.

so far, so good

gil
Downsizer Moderator

Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 18415

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 07 3:39 pm Post subject:
Update on Off-Licence application hoops to jump through. Since the police check, I've also dealt with enquiries from the following departments : 1. Fire Service 2. Buildings Control 3. Planning At the end of the 3-week period during which you display the notice at the gate, you sign and send to the Licensing Board a form that states you have displayed said notice, and a copy of the notice.

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