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Blue Sky

Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 7658
Location: France

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 9:17 am Post subject:

I am in favour of water meters in domestic properties. I can't speak for such as "Portwayfarm" as running a business is a different ballgame. We have a meter in the house and to a certain extent we are concious about the amount of water we use. We share baths, don't flush loo in the night etc. (daytime it's the compost heap - fluids only of course).

We have a well with a constant supply of clean water (so I am told) but I have not yet used it

It is a case of would it cost us more in electricity (and initial capital) to pump the water out of the well than the mains water is costing us? I am still on the lookout for a hand pump but even then the effort expended might not be worth the money saved. All the water for our animals comes from water butts in the garden. So far these have not all become empty although I here tell of a heatwave on it's way

Should we turn this topic into a vote?

Andrea

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 9:55 am Post subject:

I've requested a water meter on my house & find myself reducing our water use already, even before it's installed.

I don't normally water the garden other than the veg but as soon as I can find a suitable piece of hose I'll start draining the bath onto the front lawn before it turns brown completely.

Wish there was an easy way of diverting the water from the washing machine onto the back garden. Actually diverting the waste pipe is easy enough, but it is finding an easy way of storing it for long enough to cool down that's proving problematic.

Agree with previous posters though. I'm only requesting a water meter & thinking about more careful use of water because it will make me a cost saving. Where's the incentive for someone who won't necessarily make a saving? My parent's next door neighbour seems to have the garden sprinkler running virtually constantly. They're originally from part of the world where water is a scarcer resource than here so it always suprises me that they're so willing to waste it, but their attitude is that they've paid for it so they're entitled.

portwayfarm

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 89

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 4:34 pm Post subject:

Our soakaway is not connected to the house system, it was the yard area which subsequently was where the stables went. So all yard water (washing horses etc went down into the soakaway not the drains), but due to the proximity of our neighbours and the road the water board would not allow a discount as they were adament that we could not prove 100% that none of the yard water went down a drain some where. Lots of shouting etc went on and in the end they gave us a form to fill in which they granted us discount over the year of around �20. Apparently had a known company put in the soakaway then they would have given us a lot more as then we would have plans that should beyond doubt that no run off went into the drains.

Told them they could stick their charity.

We closed the stables down almost 3 yrs ago so do not have an issue any more about the water meter. And yes you can charge liveries for water and electricity which we did but when they leave your taps running and go riding as they forgot and you come home from shopping to discover the great flood that is happening from the taps, how can you charge them extra for that. Livery yards are not cheap here we charged �18 per wk for DIY which covered all our insurance costs, water, elec, stables, field, fencing, maintanace. They had to buy bedding and hay, but they did not have to buy it from us. That is alot of money and we held prices for 4 yrs, when we had to put prices up as public liability went through the roof as horse riding is no longer seen at own responsibilty we found the liveries boycotted and walked out. We let them go. But it proved that there is a line that people can not afford to cross. So to them it was not their water, they were already paying for it any way so who cares.

I'm all for water meters if we get a service, but here we are always having water failures and when you ask the board to bring in over 100 gals so all livestock have water they get funny!!!!

Mrs Fiddlesticks

Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 10460

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 4:44 pm Post subject:
Am I right in thinking that a hose-pipe ban would mean that it is illegal to use a hose-pipe to syphon the bath water out, or is that an urban myth.

Bugs

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 10744

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 8:30 pm Post subject:

Fiddlesticks Julie wrote:

Am I right in thinking that a hose-pipe ban would mean that it is illegal to use a hose-pipe to syphon the bath water out, or is that an urban myth.

Sadly, apparently not, according to our resident chap in the know (hope this link works)
https://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=67142&highlight=hose%2A#67142

Andrea

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal

Posted: Thu Jul 14, 05 9:43 pm Post subject:

Bugs wrote:

Fiddlesticks Julie wrote:

Am I right in thinking that a hose-pipe ban would mean that it is illegal to use a hose-pipe to syphon the bath water out, or is that an urban myth.

Sadly, apparently not, according to our resident chap in the know (hope this link works)
https://forum.downsizer.net/viewtopic.php?p=67142&highlight=hose%2A#67142

The world's gone mad!

energybook

Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 10
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 05 7:28 am Post subject: water is a commodity

Having worked in the utility industry for many years I view the water industry with some anger. In terms of pipe replacement technology the water industry has always been behind the gas industry - why? Because gas is very dangerous and gas leaks kill people and gas costs money. It is not economical at the moment to replace leaking pipes - its is cheaper to build more reservoirs.

The technology is there to replace old cast iron pipes but the water industries have flitted here money away on providing what they call customer service - they need to get the basics right. How often do we need to call the water companies - not veru ofetn yet they spend millions in that area.

Did you know that they do not know how much it cost to supply a customer. With gas and electricity the companies have good asset management systems that let them know where they should spend there money and how much it cost to supply individual customers (within reason).

I am also fed up with hearing that the rainful is less than normal - well normal is an average so it has to be less or more most of the time! It is the water companies' job to forecast supply and demand and build an infrastructure to cope - that is their job!

As for water conservation - well it's a funny thing. We would leave a light on but not a tap running.... I think water meters deter the stupid people who think it's ok to leave a hose pipe running . What about those stupid hose flower things that you can buy that spray water round your garden for fun? How is that a good use of water?

Remember also that leaking water cost energy too through wasted pumping costs.

So I am mad - it's about time water companies took on their responsibilities. I have listened to Thames and other companies on the radio this week along with a guy I know from WaterUK - all excuses. get out there and get the water meters in, replace the leaking pipes and work with people to conserve water. Like so many utilities - the more you use the less you pay per unit - lets change that now.

I started up a water trading business a few years back

www.waterexchangeuk.com

We couldn't get it off the ground because the water companies and others don't like to think of water as a very valuable commodity - like oil, gas and coffee.

It we belive that it has value then we will bring in efficient ways to transport and use it.

It is a fundamental right but some one has to pay for it so lets charge the people that waste it.

And whilst we are on it - lets put up the price of petrol too!! If its expensive people might think twice about buying gas guzzling 4x4s.

Get rid of road tax and put the tax on the user and waster!

Sorry - I wrote more than I thought I was going to - but I feel better now......

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 05 7:58 am Post subject:

portwayfarm wrote:

they were adament that we could not prove 100% that none of the yard water went down a drain some where.

we are always having water failures and when you ask the board to bring in over 100 gals so all livestock have water they get funny!!!!

You are right - you are paying for a service and you should get that service. What you have described above is poor service and should be resolved. As you can't prove the matter about drainage neither can they! And you shouldn't be losing supply regulalrly for whatever reason.

If you feel strongly about it complain to the independent watchdog for your area. You should be able to find which one form the link below.

https://www.ofwat.gov.uk/aptrix/ofwat/publish.nsf/Content/navigation-watervoice-homepage

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Fri Jul 15, 05 10:52 am Post subject: Re: water is a commodity

Hi Energybook I broadly agree with your views but not on a few issues

Re: It is not economical at the moment to replace leaking pipes - its is cheaper to build more reservoirs.

I don't think a reservoir has been built in over 30 years. They are very expensive and not an instant fix as the time from first plans to copetion is estimated at 20 to 25 year, planning issues being the main time constraint. I don't know anywhere in the country that would want a new reservoir.

Re: The technology is there to replace old cast iron pipes....

Relaying or relining pipes is not rocket science and new techniques have been adopted which speed the process up, particilalry new liings which cure in a day instead of three.

Companies plan their investment in five year blocks. The driver for this investment is European and UK regulations, political issues and regulatory targets. In the early 90's the drivers were improving drinking water quality through new treatment works, improving discharges from sewage works and customer service. The regulator was keen for companies to measure and improve their customer service. Customer service has improved and is now cheaper to provide in realterms than in 1990. On average a customer contact their water company once every 15 years. Leakage did not become an issue until the Labout party latched onto it as a political stick with which to hit the tories in 1996/97. As discussed above and as you'll be aware there's a balance between chasing leaks and the costs of other measures. there will always be leaks.

Re Did you know.....

Yes - this is the problem of basing charges on an outdated tax. Companies know how much it costs to produce the water. This is then divied up among customers based on the Rateable Value so there is no such thing as unit cost. Metered customers pay the unit rate.

Re I am also fed up with hearing that the rainful is less than normal - well normal is an average so it has to be less or more most of the time! It is the water companies' job to forecast supply and demand and build an infrastructure to cope - that is their job!

Water companies do forecast supply and demand. What they can't guarentee is the raw materieal is actually delivered, even this power is beyond them. Of course reservoirs could be built to hold more on a just incase basis but that's an expensive an inefficient solution. Customers can have all the infrastructure including new reservoirs they want if they pay for it. Research quite clearly shows they are not.

Remember also that leaking water cost energy too through wasted pumping costs.

Yes - and this is in the companies interest because they get to keep the money saved.

So I am mad....

Yes but the investment must be done wisely and not just to appear to be doing something or fixing leaks for the sake of it.

Re: water companies and others don't like to think of water as a very valuable commodity

Water companies do - it's their job. However the drivers by Government and the Regulator are to produce it as cheaply as possible. However rather than invest in pipes and reservoirs to provide the necessary peak resources tariffs can be used to increase the 'value' of water at peak times. Which is actually cheaper to customers all round.

Re: It we belive....

Fully agree

I work for a northern water company that has bitter experience of drought and resource issues that has spent millions strenghtening the network and distribution system to ensure continuity of supply.

Cheers

Rikki

Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 35
Location: Bucks

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 05 10:26 pm Post subject:
Given the minisule cost of a litre of "company" water I can't see reasonable people depriving animals of water. What amazes me is that people are willing to pay for bottled water.

kevsterjw

Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 14

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 05 7:54 am Post subject:

only just caught this thread. We had a water meter already installed when we moved in and i'm a bit cinfused by it. We are under the power of Thames Water and get charged a set amount each month.

I thought the whole point of water meters was that you get charged for what you use not what they estimate you use

incidentally i don't think it has changed the way we use water we have a half flush toilet and a water butt etc and don't really waste water anyway so we'll just carry on as we were. But i do think that they are a good idea for the majority of teh britsh public who could do better do save wtaer.

Andrea

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 2260
Location: Portugal

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 05 9:10 am Post subject:

My water meter was fitted on Friday, & I have just phoned South East Water to find out what my new bill will show. Astonishingly, the girl on the phone didn't know!!!!

Apparantly my sewerage is dealt with by Thames Water, although South East Water will bill me for it. Her solution was for me to phone Thames Water & ask them directly.

Anyway, end result is that I have what I think are the correct charges. In the absence of any sense from South East Water, could anyone who has a water meter installed tell me if these sound approximately right?

Water - standing charge - �15 p/yr
Water usage - �0.6946 p/cubic meter

Sewerage - standing charge - �41 p/yr
Sewerage usage - �0.4385 p/cubic meter

It took me 14 minutes to get that information.

portwayfarm

Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 89

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 05 9:26 am Post subject:

Given up with ours, they still estimate. We just pay by DD and in the end it all sorts itself out. As for animals, apparently here in the west midlands they are not a neccessity and are viewed the same way as garden plants

They have to be without water for 24hrs before they will bring drums up, humans come first!!!!!!!We have always had terrible service from our companys, severn trent do one thing and the sewerage is done by someone else, or is it the other way round.....

kevsterjw

Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 14

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 05 12:04 pm Post subject:
we have one as i sadi but we just pay �17 per month whatever happens?!?!?!

judith

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 22789
Location: Montgomeryshire

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 05 1:12 pm Post subject:

kevsterjw wrote:

we have one as i sadi but we just pay �17 per month whatever happens?!?!?!

It is probably the same principle that applies if you pay your electricity bill by direct debit. When you move to a new house, the electricity company bills you a set amount per month that is based on what the previous occupants used. If your usage is lower than that then, after one year, you can either have your monthly payment reduced to reflect your actual usage and the overpayment or you can ask them to return the overpayment.
I don't know for certain, but I imagine it is the same with your water bill.

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