Which hive to buy for a beginner??

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Which hive to buy for a beginner??
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Mrs Baggins

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 837
Location: West Kent

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 09 10:27 pm Post subject:

Ahhh... I was feeling that lurve and peace hedgehog pie, ta muchly!

My meeting went really well, they were all so friendly and really welcoming. I got the chance to chat to some guys who I saw as real experts! One was a bee-inspector, one is a bee farmer and one was the guy who had given the presentation. They all thought quite highly of TBH but all (individually) said the same thing:

Go with a BS one until you are experienced at handling the bees and then try a TBH.

It all seemed geared towards enabling them to support me rather than writing them off just for the sake of it - so I am inclined to take their advice on board.

So I am back to considering Nationals again but the bad news is that I am now considering WBCs too, which up until now I had completely written off. Sigh.

PS: Not a tossed teacup in sight and no need for a German phrase book! Huurah! And have you heard about the bee equip auction in Yalding in April?

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 9:57 am Post subject:

I wouldn't give up on the TBH.
For the begginer opening the hive & inspecting the comb is a most harowing experience.
When you open a conventional hive whichever pattern, you are exposing the whole colony to the light & cooler temps which invariably requires a degree of smoke to subdue with a lot of bees flying out to investigate regardless.
With a TBH you are only exposing one comb at a time so fewer bees to subdue & because the exposure isn't so severe they react differently anyway.

hedgehogpie

Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 684
Location: Kent

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 1:07 pm Post subject:

Glad it went well!

I'm going with the flow myself at the moment too. It's difficult to know which way to turn but I've only just done my 5th session on the course and am well aware of my lack of knowledge & inexperince so I'm prepared to wait & learn more. I do like the more natural approach with TBH's but it is possible with frame set ups to use a kind of thick fabric inspection cover type affair that allows you to just expose the one you're working on (can't remember the actual name for it sorry!).

Nice to feel that your guys are open to you making your own choice without trying to push you in any one direction. Our tutor seems a little more rigid in his approach and very keen on Nationals, but never really discusses any type of hive that isn't based on a conventional frame set-up.

I have to be honest and say that I'm not sure I'd consider a WBC myself though. From what I've seen they can be horrendously difficult to move, although they do look the way you'd imagine a nice white painted 'proper' hive to be.

So much to learn!

I had heard about the Yalding sale, are you planning on going along?

RichardW

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 8443
Location: Llyn Peninsular North Wales

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 1:55 pm Post subject:
I love those TBH's. The plans are so much simpler to make than a standard type hive. I might even have a go at making one of them as I have LOADS of cedar available. One question, with a normal hive you put teh frames in a spinner to get the honey out obviously with a TBH you cant so how do you get all the honey out? Richard

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 3:22 pm Post subject:

RichardW wrote:

I love those TBH's. The plans are so much simpler to make than a standard type hive. I might even have a go at making one of them as I have LOADS of cedar available.

One question, with a normal hive you put teh frames in a spinner to get the honey out obviously with a TBH you cant so how do you get all the honey out?

Richard

With TBHs you cut the comb off the bars & either use it as cut comb if its in good order (Which sells at a premium anyway) or crush & strain the honey.
The wax has a good resale value anyway.
That's why top bar hives aren't as productive as conventional, as the bees have to renew wax which takes up a proportion of their income.
But there is a school of thought that reckons we should be renewing the wax more frequently anyway as it helps with disease & pest prevention.

hedgehogpie

Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 684
Location: Kent

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 3:45 pm Post subject:

Another question then (sorry if it's a dumb one!).

If I've understood everything I've learned so far correctly, there will be a mix of brood (in the center), and honey and pollen stores all in the same comb, unless you have a way of excluding the queen from it which I guess is not the object with TBH's?

Since my primary aim would be to not harm the workers/brood or queen where possible, how does that work then? Do you sacrifice brood each time you harvest honey with this system? If not, how do you get around it?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, I know practically nothing about the layout of TBH's !

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 4:41 pm Post subject:

hedgehogpie wrote:

Yes in the brood nest your assumption is correct but you don't crop the brood nest.
During a honey flow whole combs will be built & filled with nothing but nectar, these are the ones you crop.
The dartington hive like TBHs doesn't use a queen excluder either & the principal is the same the only difference is in a dartington the bees are forced to build cells of a certain size as they are still on frames with foundation.
In a TBH the bees decide the cell size & there are those that think (myself included) that this is beneficial to the bees health & wellbeing.

hedgehogpie

Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 684
Location: Kent

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 5:04 pm Post subject:

Ahh... Light dawns! Thank you for that, I now understand much more about how it all works.

So in a conventional hive this natural behaviour is forced into being by containing the queen in one area and making the workers move up into a super to store additional honey stocks.

I really need to go and read the biobees site through thoroughly I think. Then I'm sure I'll be back with even more questions!

Mrs Baggins

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 837
Location: West Kent

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 7:39 pm Post subject:

I'm back from my bee classes today and my tutor is supportive of TBHs and utterly scathing of WBCs. He said that they should only ever be used as garden ornaments or composters.

Why can't you lot just agree and make it easier on us poor beginners, eh??

I am thinking that I will get two BS hives, either Nationals or WBCs (I still like them! But I want a little shot at both before I part with my cash!) and I am going to make two 48" Kenyan style TBHs. That way I have loads of support while I get used to handling my own bees and I have the TBHs ready and waiting if I need them.

This may all change... watch this space...

Hedgehogpie - My local group were really good about the way the approached advising me. They were straight with me and told me they thought I'd be better off with a BS hive but that TBHs are there and have a valuable place in bee-keeping. I still feel a bit like a pinball being fired about in the machine tho...

I am under no illusions though that whatever I decide I will disgust a huge swath of ppl... oh the pressure...

I will be at the auction in Yalding. Give us a shout if you want to meet up and put faces to names!

PS: Watch all the videos on the biobees site. Sooooo informative! Light dawned for me with those I can tell you! I was much more conversant today at bee class after watching those and asked a lot more questions than I ever have before! Get thee to biobees!

Richard W - Loads of Cedar just lying about??

Lucky man! Funnily enough, non-mechanical extraction methods were covered in today's class for me! He went brought in loads of kit for us to see. Scary. You could need a bank loan for all the stuff you can have if you want it. And you would need an extension to keep it all in!

Tavascarow - You are a veritable mine of information... is there anything you don't know? You must have been keeping bees forever...

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 09 7:56 pm Post subject:

Mrs Baggins wrote:

Tavascarow - You are a veritable mine of information... is there anything you don't know? You must have been keeping bees forever...

No my friend I'm just one of those people who when I'm interested in a subject I soak it up like a sponge.
When I'm not it goes in one ear & out the other.
Ask my old physics teacher.

Mrs Baggins

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 837
Location: West Kent

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 09 8:17 pm Post subject:
Well... as a measure of how far I have come: At my first bee class I asked if I could make Manuka honey in my garden.

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 09 8:55 pm Post subject:
According to wiki manuka is another name for leptospermum which you can grow in your garden (or at least it will grow here in Cornwall) so in theory if you had enough growing in your garden you could make manuka honey.

Fox

Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 1

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 09 9:35 am Post subject:

To my mind both the national and WBC brrod space is too small. Most people end up double brooding or brrod and a half. The risk then is that the top brood gets clogged with food if they are a bit small, whereas if you single brood they are much more likely to swarm.

Both hives are pigs to make too.

I know little about TBH. They seem sweet enough for very small scale production, but without framed comb this means you have to press the honey out. This means the bees have to make up new comb each time.

My personal favourite is the Langstroth. Boxes can be simple half but jointed. I make supers out of floorboard. Brood chambers seem to be the perfect size for the colony. Best of all, you dont need to double or one and a half brood the colony, so there's half the work to do on swarm control. The down side is the boxes weight a bit more than nationals, so aren't so good if you struggle lifting. (full supers weigh about 40lb)

gz

Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 9031
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 09 1:59 pm Post subject:

Tavascarow wrote:

According to wiki manuka is another name for leptospermum which you can grow in your garden (or at least it will grow here in Cornwall)
so in theory if you had enough growing in your garden you could make manuka honey.

manuka= ti/tea tree. don't know what the latin name is

Tavascarow

Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 8407
Location: South Cornwall

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 09 2:48 pm Post subject:

gz wrote:

Tavascarow wrote:

manuka= ti/tea tree. don't know what the latin name is

Yes but not the tea tree the oil comes from, thats Melaleuca alternifolia a relation of the bottle brush.
Manuka is Leptospermum scoparium

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